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Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

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Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the kind of ignorant idea I used to have. It is time you got beyond the media failing to provide a true historical context for what is probably the most over-reported region of the planet. Already in 1929 in Hebron "Palestinian" Arabs were massacring jews in Hebron. Jews who had live in Hebron for some thousands of years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre The way the media presents this story,…

Jews had lived in the region for thousands of years, but there was a Zionist mass migration to Palestine (the Jewish population in Palestine doubled from 1922-1931) that likely increased tensions. There has been violence from both sides of the conflict. On the Zionist side, there's another incident I've never heard mentioned in the media: the 1946 David Hotel bombing in which a Zionist terorist organization bombed a…

> of the first historic examples of terrorism targeting civilians.

Not only was the KD hotel a military headquarters, it was supposed to be empty at the time of the bombing.

You're either ignorant or lying for some reason.

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#52
post #40
post #36

I flagged this post. It's not a problem to discuss politics, but it should have a value. Do the HN community want to discuss the Palestinian-Israeli conflict? Fine, submit an article about that. But submitting such an article will only trigger a flame-war. The content of the article is of the kind that triggers 'oh, ass-hole Israeli', and 'oh, Palestinians uses this to kill innocents'. These are details. Not the actu…

Alright, let's do this thought experiment. Replace words like Israel and Palestine in the article with countries in Africa. Something like "Water pumps running off of solar power in Kenya, provided by a German start up are being removed by the local government". Would that be acceptable for HN? I am 80% confident, we wouldn't see all this discussion about how the story should have been flagged and or how it is totall…

> why is it different all of the sudden if we put "Palestine" and "Israel" back in the article.

Because it's a traditional flame-bait subject and will never produce useful discussion. Sure, some of the things you mention would be interesting, but this article does not discuss those, and even if it did discuss those the comments would still have very dull repetitive flame-baiting; and they would be the same comments seen for many many years.

> but because their own disguised biases are telling them to act that way.

No, it's just a really un-interesting topic for HN. As other people have mentioned there are much better places for this article. 4chan, or reddit, for example.

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#53

If you want to take an entrepreneurial lesson from this: 1) Get your permits. Dot your Is, cross your Ts if you can. If you can't and you think you are in the right, you should probably do it anyway. 2) If someone infinitely more powerful than you wants you to fail, things will not be easy for you. 3) Politics, business and technology mix whether you want them to or not. 4) If you are a powerful entity bullying your…

Props for taking a probably-off-topic post and bringing it on-topic.

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#54
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jews had lived in the region for thousands of years, but there was a Zionist mass migration to Palestine (the Jewish population in Palestine doubled from 1922-1931) that likely increased tensions. There has been violence from both sides of the conflict. On the Zionist side, there's another incident I've never heard mentioned in the media: the 1946 David Hotel bombing in which a Zionist terorist organization bombed a…

> of the first historic examples of terrorism targeting civilians. Not only was the KD hotel a military headquarters, it was supposed to be empty at the time of the bombing. You're either ignorant or lying for some reason.

>Not only was the KD hotel a military headquarters

Partially true... part of the hotel was used by the British for their offices:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel#History
>it was supposed to be empty at the time of the bombing.

Not quite. According to Wikipedia "Warnings were sent by telephone, including one to the hotel's own switchboard, which the hotel staff decided to ignore, but none directly to the British authorities." There's a difference between phoning in a bomb threat in an occupied building and bombing an unoccupied building.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

>You're either ignorant or lying for some reason.

I suppose it's impossible to discuss anything related to Zionism without one party denouncing the other's character. ;)

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the kind of ignorant idea I used to have. It is time you got beyond the media failing to provide a true historical context for what is probably the most over-reported region of the planet. Already in 1929 in Hebron "Palestinian" Arabs were massacring jews in Hebron. Jews who had live in Hebron for some thousands of years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre The way the media presents this story,…

Yuck. Wikipedia on the Middle East. I tried helping out with editing that area once and gave up in frustration. Lots of crazies on both sides, but I got the distinct impression that the pro-Israeli side was better organized, perhaps even funded. In any case, it looked to me like they were gaming WP for propaganda purposes (yes the other side was doing it too, but not in the same disciplined way) I'd never cite Wikipe…

Great point. I also think Israelis are a lot more disciplined in this regard. You should check out Mepi, a website that takes the craziest and most fanatical of muslims and translates what they say to the Americans. Its a principal source of "information" to a lot of news outlets in the US. Engaging, constructive Arabic debate never makes it the US.

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#56
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This just sounds wrong to me. The territories under question are not occupied, but disputed. Each side has legitimate claims to them, and their status can only be resolved through negotiations, which is what the sides themselves agreed to in the Oslo Accords [1]. Furthermore, by what is the claim that Israel smashes every attempt of Palestinian economic development supported? Over a decade, Israel ceded territory and…

The territories under question are not occupied, but disputed. Well, the UN security council, the UN general assembly, the US, the EU, and the International Court of Justice, among others, disagree with you there.

The term 'Occupied' is often used loosely, even in Israel itself.

The version of 'Occupied' that I'd like to address means: Israel has no claim to any part of the West Bank, is hence illegally present in all parts of it, and should, by international law, withdraw.

This version of 'Occupied' is not supported, as far as I know, by either the US, the EU or the UN security council. If you think it is, I'd be interested in seeing some supporting data.

Even if it were supported by these bodies though, I don't see how that would be enough to make the territories occupied in the sense quoted above. The position of international bodies is, regrettably, often driven more by interests than principle. Ninety years ago, for example, major international organisations (The League of Nations, European powers, the Ottoman Empire) supported Israel's (to be) claim to all British Mandate territories, which includes the West Bank. Agreements were signed [1], and ratified by the UN at its founding.

What I am saying is, that each side in this conflict has legitimate claims to the territory, and that both sides' claims are supported by past international resolutions and treaties, by a historical presence in the land, and perhaps most importantly, by an agreement between the sides themselves - the Oslo Accords.

No reasonable Israeli, including myself, is interested in prolonging Israeli rule over the Palestinian population. I even believe, as I think do most Israelis, that within a comprehensive solution to this conflict, it is in Israel's strategic interest to treat the West Bank as largely Palestinian territory, regardless of any claims and rights Israel might have to it.

Israel has, several times in the past, agreed to withdraw from most of the West Bank, most notably during the Camp David accords of 2000, and the succeeding peace plan put forward by Clinton ("The Clinton Parameters"), which were rejected by the Palestinians at the time. A comprehensive account of events is given by Dennis Ross in his book "The Missing Peace", which I can warmly recommend to any student of the conflict.

Israel's current military presence in most of the West Bank, is, as I see it, largely a security issue. After Israel's 2005 withdrawal from Gaza, a Palestinian civil war ensued that resulted in Hamas rule over Gaza. Hamas openly calls for Israel's destruction, and backs it up with routine rocket fire into Israeli population centers.

Israel is a liberal democracy, largely driven by western values of equality and prosperity. Our neighbors are, sadly, not. Along with most Israelis, I hope that a peaceful resolution to this conflict can be found, and take no issue to with eventual Palestinian control over nearly the entire West Bank and East Jerusalem.

PS. If anyone would like to continue this discussion by email, I'd be happy to do that - david [at] skillsapp [dot] com

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Remo_conference

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#57
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two questions: (1) Why do you think Israel should be obliged to supply electricity to a hostile territory, ruled by a government that explicitly states it's desire to destroy it [1], backed up with routine rocket fire into Israeli population centers? (2) How exactly is Israel preventing the generation of electricity in Gaza? [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant EDIT: grammar correction

(1) Why do you think Israel should be obliged to supply electricity to a hostile territory Why do you think a newly found state (~65 years) has any right to claim the territory it occupies (except of the might makes right variety)? ruled by a government that explicitly states it's desire to destroy it [1] As opposed to a government that occupied the land from the previous inhabitants and has been steadily displacing…

Sorry, but I can't see any actual response to my questions here, just further hate mongering.

Israel does not claim Gaza. It withdrew completely from Gaza in 2005, and gave full control over to the Palestinian Authority. Israeli NGOs even invested tens of millions of dollars in boosting the Palestinian economy after the withdrawal.

Either way, it's probably going to be very hard to have a reasoned discussion, so I'll just stop here.

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#58
post #40
post #36

I flagged this post. It's not a problem to discuss politics, but it should have a value. Do the HN community want to discuss the Palestinian-Israeli conflict? Fine, submit an article about that. But submitting such an article will only trigger a flame-war. The content of the article is of the kind that triggers 'oh, ass-hole Israeli', and 'oh, Palestinians uses this to kill innocents'. These are details. Not the actu…

Alright, let's do this thought experiment. Replace words like Israel and Palestine in the article with countries in Africa. Something like "Water pumps running off of solar power in Kenya, provided by a German start up are being removed by the local government". Would that be acceptable for HN? I am 80% confident, we wouldn't see all this discussion about how the story should have been flagged and or how it is totall…

[deleted]

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#59
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> of the first historic examples of terrorism targeting civilians. Not only was the KD hotel a military headquarters, it was supposed to be empty at the time of the bombing. You're either ignorant or lying for some reason.

>Not only was the KD hotel a military headquarters Partially true... part of the hotel was used by the British for their offices: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel#History >it was supposed to be empty at the time of the bombing. Not quite. According to Wikipedia "Warnings were sent by telephone, including one to the hotel's own switchboard, which the hotel staff decided to ignore, but none directly to the…

Yes the part of the hotel that was bombed was the part of the hotel that was used by the British military thereby invalidating your value judgement that the attack was meant to kill civilians.

Re: Israel to destroy Palestinians' solar panels

#60
post #40
post #36

I flagged this post. It's not a problem to discuss politics, but it should have a value. Do the HN community want to discuss the Palestinian-Israeli conflict? Fine, submit an article about that. But submitting such an article will only trigger a flame-war. The content of the article is of the kind that triggers 'oh, ass-hole Israeli', and 'oh, Palestinians uses this to kill innocents'. These are details. Not the actu…

Alright, let's do this thought experiment. Replace words like Israel and Palestine in the article with countries in Africa. Something like "Water pumps running off of solar power in Kenya, provided by a German start up are being removed by the local government". Would that be acceptable for HN? I am 80% confident, we wouldn't see all this discussion about how the story should have been flagged and or how it is totall…

> Are people driving an article down and flagging it as "inappropriate politically" not because they are trying to keep HN pure but because their own disguised biases are telling them to act that way.

I was banned for an critical comment on Apple. So I can tell you that their biases is not disguised anymore.

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