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APIs for content sites must be free

somebits.com

251–260 of 300 posts

Re: APIs for content sites must be free

#251
In my opinion, the author doesn't really think things through, it's just dropping some confident one-dimensional opinions without looking at multiple perspectives.

"The key thing here is social media sites don’t produce content. They merely host it. Millions of users create the content expecting it will be widely available. Locking down an API breaks that social contract."

"Merely host it" is framed here like it's no big deal. It's a huge fucking deal. Giant social networks are incredibly complicated to run, and it's not only technical aspects that make it so. You can hate these companies all you want, but let's not be ridiculous in suggesting that they offer little to no value.

Second, the idea that content producers produce all the real value on the network is incomplete. First because of the reason mentioned above: the network itself (the plumbing and operation) has tremendous value and there would be no content without it. Second, because freely provided content in itself offers no financial value, in fact it starts out as a cost (hosting and moderation). Only when monetized does this content provide financial value. I know that users don't give a shit about that or are hostile to monetization but that doesn't change the fact that a large social network needs to cover costs.

Third, the idea that any user of a social network has the right to download/access the entirety of all content ever produced on it, and this being some right or social contract...is made up bullshit. Most people have no idea what an API even is, have no weird need to do data digging, it's not a common need or expectation at all.

Fourth, the AI problem is conveniently dodged. At Stackoverflow, moderators angrily demand their data dumps back, completely ignoring the reason why they were shut down in the first place: AI. Yet nobody engages with the point that the entirety of Stackoverflow might cease to exist and become obsolete because of it. That includes all the content those moderators put so much work in to curate.

In both cases, you're on a sinking ship and protest to actively sink it faster.

Re: APIs for content sites must be free

#252
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same, I wish we could contribute content (posts, comments, votes, etc) in a redistributable way. I'd like to a P2P-backed service to exist, where people can own all the data. I guess that abuse would be a challenge, but there's probably enough good ideas around bittorrent and cryptocurrency to make sharing and trust/voting possible. My dream is that people could have a ~raspberry at home helping host the internet in…

Inefficiency was always a red herring. $ curl https://www.reddit.com > /dev/null % Total % Received % Xferd Average Speed Time Time Time Current Dload Upload Total Spent Left Speed 100 970k 0 970k 0 0 840k 0 --:--:-- 0:00:01 --:--:-- 840k That's just the index, not images or anything pulled in by scripts. That page takes longer to download on a gigabit internet connection than the The biggest problem is actually fund…

I'm not too concerned about efficiency either. Growing with slow and spotty rural internet taught me the hard way that data locality is key.

Also, with enough data, having to get only what you care about is probably faster.

Re: APIs for content sites must be free

#253
post #221
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good argument against ads, because ads introduce a fundamental misalignment of incentives between the platform and the user. There are many ways reddit could build a collaborative business from their current situation. Advertising is very clearly not going to work, so they just need to look outside that box.

> There are many ways reddit could build a collaborative business from their current situation Like charging for API access? Yeah, that went well...

The Spotify solution (premium users can use any third-party client) would have made lots of money with less uproar. Another bonus, solves the supposed issues with allowing NSFW content through APIs. Google, for one, take a credit card as proof of being 18+ in the EU (you have a choice between that and scanning an ID card).

Or if Reddit doesn't want to handle billing the users directly for whatever reason, require signin and charge the devs per user. Even some sort of grace period and reasonable prices per-request would have made a big difference, Apollo dev's hard blocker seemed to be conflict with existing billing cycles.

Re: APIs for content sites must be free

#254
post #6

Good luck lobbying YouTube to make their API free. I'd love to have a version of the YouTube app that didn't cost me any money and also didn't have ads.

I use ReVanced and it does exactly what you ask for, including even more features like SponsorBlock. I can't imagine using the regular YouTube app anymore.

Funnily enough there is also Reddit ReVanced, but with enough effort Reddit or YouTube could stop them working, so their existence doesn't change the argument about free/open APIs.

Re: APIs for content sites must be free

#255
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Based on this man's logic, if I were to run a web forum then I must provide an API or data dump to download the posts created by the users? How about a comment section on my blog? How about a community Discord server? Why not Facebook posts? Or Instagram stories? Yes? I don't think it's a very radical, unreasonable or difficult thing to provide: this is available as a first class feature on most blogging/forum soft…

> users are also free to leave, complain, or demand that they don't change Yes, I have no issue with all of those. I'm poking fun at taking that desire for action from a single company in a single instance and extending it to a universal moral principle. My own opinion is that Reddit users were getting something valuable for free and it is being taken away from them. In addition to the totally reasonable protests tha…

Well said!

Re: APIs for content sites must be free

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely nothing. I don't understand why they don't just support OAuth and then the api usage would be by user, not by the app itself. Otherwise apps like apollo technically would be some of the biggest "users" of the api. What's wild to me isn't just the amount, it's the lack of time. In theory APollo might have enough users will to pay enough for them to profit (albiet with a fraction of the users). But because t…

I figured because they don't want 3rd party apps because they don't run ads for Reddit. Reddit wants users within their (soon to be) walled garden getting fed all of the monetization pressure systems. My take when Reddit said that Apollo cost them $20M a year, they weren't talking running costs but revenue potential because Apollo doesn't feed ads to its users.

I don’t understand, if API apps not displaying ads is the problem, why Reddit doesn’t include ads in the feed and make displaying them part of the terms for access. They could even have a revenue sharing agreement with the app developers.

Re: APIs for content sites must be free

#258

My take is slightly more nuanced - if you're paying a company to access their content, it shouldn't matter how you're accessing that content. More concretely, as a (former) subscriber to Reddit Premium, I should continue to get access to Reddit via their APIs for free. But that was never an option, since Reddit only wants to charge the application creators and not the actual consumers.

This is a completely flawed argument. You didn't buy Reddit premium to get access to the content, you bought Reddit premium to not see ads and get free coins, which you did get. Your argument is the same as saying that if I buy a can of Coke I should be allowed to use the CEO's company car for life.

Not seeing ads is always free, just don't use the site, Reddit premium=content-without-ads.

It's easy for them to allow premium users API access, they'll still be developed for third-party apps with an accessibility focus amongst other things.

Reddit doesn't owe us anything. But given how easy this would be, it's unsurprising that taking the current obtuse approach makes some people not want to use the site.

Re: APIs for content sites must be free

#259
post #13

I like vehement arguments even when I disagree with them. Based on this man's logic, if I were to run a web forum then I must provide an API or data dump to download the posts created by the users? How about a comment section on my blog? How about a community Discord server? Why not Facebook posts? Or Instagram stories? I often get the feeling that in these circumstances people derive first principles from specific d…

I'm honestly shocked by how naive people are about open data/web.

If a platform owner together with a community of enthusiasts produces a valuable set of content/data and then makes it openly available to the world...what exactly do you expect will happen?

We've seen what happens during the last 15 years, an era of massive centralization. And now it's AI saying "thanks for everything!".

But it doesn't even need to be AI. Allow me to use the free and unlimited Reddit API which apparently allows you to make billions of calls at no charge, and then rehost all that content on an ad farm.

This is the real reason the original web3 (semantic web) was dead before it even started and instead of becoming more open, everyone became less open. Because giving away your main assets is suicidal.

Re: APIs for content sites must be free

#260

I'd go a step further: APIs shouldn't exist. I know, it's a hilarious sentiment in these times. But I really feel that most of the problems today around walled gardens and surveillance capitalism stem from not using the web directly as it was originally envisioned. If we had properly formatted HTML, little/no Javascript, a standard auth mechanism that isn't terrible (HTTP auth or a cookie like the good 'ol days), aut…

Eh, a JSON blob is still much more lightweight than HTML/XML. This is important in less developed areas of the world, where internet speed may not be as fast.
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