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San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep homeless from using it

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Re: San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep homeless from using it

#91

Post by nvahalik »

williamvds wrote: post #63
0xB31B1B wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Library wifi is not a homeless service. An 24 hour open seat on a subway is not a homeless service. Parks where children play is not a homeless service. Public goods being overtaken by an antisocial drug users in the name of homeless support is not progressive.

Libraries are a public service, and free WiFi is often provided along with that service. In this case that service is being deliberately sabotaged for one of the most vulnerable groups in society. Internet access is so necessary in modern life that it should be considered a citizen or human right. Even if you subscribe to the ideology of the homeless being lazy leeches, the counter-effectiveness is quite obvious. Hom…

> Libraries are a public service

They are paid for by taxpayers. If the people funding the projects are unable to use them or they are being abused, then it makes sense to ensure that those that pay for the service are able to use them.

Re: San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep homeless from using it

#92

Post by gumby »

meetingthrower wrote: post #77
dijit wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost to run the service though is as close to zero as you can possibly get. It just feels somewhat inhumane to take something away which is a marginal cost and at best and doesn't cause harm. I mean, Libraries themselves do not need to exist, they are a service, they don't earn money, under pure capitalism they can't exist. But we know as a society that it improves social mobility and education. and I mean, you c…

Right, but bedding down outside the library at night so you can get free wifi is antisocial behavior. Why should we invest this much in our public spaces and then effectively give them away? I wouldnt want somebody sleeping next to my house so he could get WiFi. Public spaces are ours. Don't get me wrong. I think we should make massive investments in trying to solve the homeless problem, but giving away our public co…

> Why should we invest this much in our public spaces and then effectively give them away? I wouldnt want somebody sleeping next to my house so he could get WiFi. Public spaces are ours.

“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.” ― Anatole France

Re: San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep homeless from using it

#93

Post by nubb »

piloto_ciego wrote: post #59
nubb wrote: post #25

everyone acting so shocked here probably hasn’t had your home robbed, your car windows broken, or been assaulted and/or robbed by a drugged out bum. at some point enough is enough and they gotta go. i think it’s a juvenile attitude to look down your nose at the endless victims and tell them to just be more understanding of the hardships the homeless face.

[flagged]

one day when you’re permanently disabled because a bum hit you with a wrench unprovoked, remember to apologize to them for putting them in that position.

Re: San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep homeless from using it

#94

Post by adrr »

joenot443 wrote: post #14
reaperducer wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in hopes the Castro neighborhood’s unhoused population would move on. We really need to implement solutions better than "go be homeless somewhere else."

In NYC the DHS intakes and beds 60,000 homeless people _every single night_. To say that there aren't solutions in place is incorrect. At least in NYC, the folks you see sleeping on sidewalks have broadly chosen that position over a bed in a shelter. It's a point of pride for many New Yorkers that if you're homeless and willing to get clean, the city will provide a bed for you every night. https://www.nyc.gov/assets/…

There are programs that will get you an apartment and a job if you’re homeless. When I lived in Santa Monica, the workers who cleaned the streets were formerly homeless living on the same streets.

This is the program in Santa Monica. https://www.changelives.org/

Re: San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep homeless from using it

#95

Post by sangnoir »

throwawaymaths wrote: post #65
dijit wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost to run the service though is as close to zero as you can possibly get. It just feels somewhat inhumane to take something away which is a marginal cost and at best and doesn't cause harm. I mean, Libraries themselves do not need to exist, they are a service, they don't earn money, under pure capitalism they can't exist. But we know as a society that it improves social mobility and education. and I mean, you c…

Why not provide wifi for the homeless as a service, with its own line item, instead of doing it via the Library?

Why segregate an existing service that's already meant for everyone? Would we need another wifi network for Veterans and yet another for retirees?

Re: San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep homeless from using it

#96

Post by JumpCrisscross »

gumby wrote: post #92
meetingthrower wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but bedding down outside the library at night so you can get free wifi is antisocial behavior. Why should we invest this much in our public spaces and then effectively give them away? I wouldnt want somebody sleeping next to my house so he could get WiFi. Public spaces are ours. Don't get me wrong. I think we should make massive investments in trying to solve the homeless problem, but giving away our public co…

> Why should we invest this much in our public spaces and then effectively give them away? I wouldnt want somebody sleeping next to my house so he could get WiFi. Public spaces are ours. “The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.” ― Anatole France

The law in practice doesn’t prohibit it. You’re seeing a debate about whether it should, a debate to which this quip adds nothing.

Re: San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep homeless from using it

#97

Post by FireBeyond »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #53
Hermitian909 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who volunteers with the homeless a lot I mostly agree, but I will take the other side for a moment: It's very hard to a voter base who feel financially squeezed that their taxes should be going to people who, usually, are not holding down a job. They're "doing everything right" and feel the government is robbing Peter to pay Paul as it were. There are a lot of sophisticated answers we can give as to why th…

“A Republic, if you can keep it.” The quote came to mind while I listened to a Radiolab episode on police surveillance [1]. We usually take it to mean opposing tyranny, even when convenient. But that might be too simple. For every Patrick Henry there are dozens who prefer not to die. If we let the security situation devolve out of sympathy, or inequality increase in pursuit of efficiency, those people will snap and p…

I realize you say "I'm not suggesting we re-criminalise homelessness"... however in many people's eyes, there's a "but" there that if not suggesting it certainly implies "but we should certainly consider it". To which I say:

We have the fifth highest prison population per capita (behind El Salvador, Rwanda, Turkmenistan and Cuba), and you want to consider adding potentially another 600,000 (40% more) people to that population?

That would put us at the highest prison population in the world, and it would be not even close. That would be twenty per cent higher than some of the world's most despotic, dysfunctional countries.

And the same people who are not willing to fund socioeconomic initiatives, not willing to fund access to mental healthcare, are also not willing to fund improvements to American prisons which, while not the worst in the world, are certainly not even close to the pack when it comes to humane conditions, improving situation and circumstance, and reducing recidivism.

How would such a person get to leave prison if they were there because they were homeless? They leave prison and they're still homeless (see: already vastly overwhelmed transitional support structures, and a huge influx of additional demand and suffocatingly small desire to improve that situation).

Re: San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep homeless from using it

#98

Post by warent »

michaelt wrote: post #62
warent wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile people say "But the homeless people will just use public wifi for porn!" Like... okay, and what are you using your wifi for? Regardless, removing this would just make them more stressed and irratic. There are worse things than legal porn on public wifi. If this tradeoff means 1% of them feel relaxed enough to actually do a job search afterward, and get motivated to get money for a more comfortable, more pri…

> what are you using your wifi for? Pretty sure it's more a matter of location. Normal people only masturbate in the privacy of their own homes. I know San Francisco is a very progressive city, but I don't think they're yet ready to embrace homeless people jerking it on the sidewalk outside the library.

I agree that we need to be mindful about our approach. Homeless people can't be given unlimited luxuries because we can't afford it as a society.

That being said, your comment comes across as reductive to the homeless population as being nothing more than a snide, tongue-in-cheek joke.

This "Normal people" messaging is what allows us to abstract homeless people into this "other" group, which is dangerous and inhumane. Like it or not, these people with all of their problems are a part of us all.

Re: San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep homeless from using it

#99

Post by notaustinpowers »

berkle4455 wrote: post #83
notaustinpowers wrote: post #12

Every day I start to believe more and more that people won't stop with homelessness until every homeless person is dead. "Emergency housing is a drain on taxpayer dollars." "Job placement is taking jobs away from locals." "Soup kitchens are another drain on taxpayer money." "Homeless services are a waste of money." It makes me sick how people can act when it comes to the homeless population when so many of us are jus…

I just don't care anymore after being verbally assaulted on walks or at parks by random people clearly out of their mind and an endless supply of used needles in public places and playgrounds.

Have some compassion maybe?

Re: San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep homeless from using it

#100

Post by JumpCrisscross »

sangnoir wrote: post #95
throwawaymaths wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not provide wifi for the homeless as a service, with its own line item, instead of doing it via the Library?

Why segregate an existing service that's already meant for everyone? Would we need another wifi network for Veterans and yet another for retirees?

> Why segregate a service that's already meant for everyone?

Because one group denies it to others. In New York, the potent image is that of a homeless person obviously going through a mental health issue, who hasn’t bathed in what smells like weeks, sitting in a subway car on their own. (When I was younger and naïve, I went into one such car and tried to talk to them. I had a handful of what I’ll pretend was a smelly sauce tossed my way.)

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