Bay Area woman is on a crusade to prove Yelp reviews can’t be trusted • Hacker News Board

Re: Bay Area woman is on a crusade to prove Yelp reviews can’t be trusted

#201

Post by JohnFen » Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 9:09 PM UTC

sophacles wrote: post #191

floren wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a broader internet problem in general - "trending" algorithmic reinforcement stuff will push everyone towards the ONE TRUE BEST HOTTEST MOST POPULAR bbq/ramen/whatver place, when probably there's half a dozen other options within 10% of taste and quality, that some people very well could legitimately like better if they heard about them too. Instagram doesn't help -- gotta get a shot of me eating noodles at th…

Back in my bar-tending days we always told the door staff (bouncers) to slow down when checking IDs early in the evening, just to get a line going. It works surprisingly well for drawing in more customers. Totally tangential but follow-ups on that psychology: * some people would walk in and see the still mostly-empty bar and get fed up that they waited in line for "nothing". This was surprisingly few people though. *…

Utterly bizarre, yes. I think the psychological term for this is "social proof", and it applies to all sorts of weird things. For instance -- a person who is getting lots of flirty attention in public will tend to appear more attractive to others. Not because they are, but because seeing them get attention is social proof that they're worthy of attention.

Once I became an old fart, I started seeing these lines as a sign to move on. The question in my mind (at any age) was always "is the place worth waiting in line for?" But these days, I already know from years of experience that the answer is very likely "no".

Skipping the line has improved my nights out, though, because in looking for an alternative, I frequently find hidden gems and can enjoy them before the rest of the city discovers them.

Re: Bay Area woman is on a crusade to prove Yelp reviews can’t be trusted

#202

Post by karaterobot » Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 9:15 PM UTC

telchior wrote: post #178

Guest9081239812 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google Maps is terrible for hiding results. I'll use the filter to show restaurants with a 4.5+ star rating, and it hides dozens of places 4.5+ stars while instead showing results 4.0 - 4.4 stars and even some that have no reviews at all. I find the arrogance insulting. You want to see 4.5+ star Japanese food restaurants? Well, I don't think that's best for you, and I'm going to replace some of those results with 4.1…

I despise Google Maps for this. I can know that a restaurant exists, zoom in on its block, search 'restaurants' -- nothing. It'll zoom out the map and show other stuff. Worse, I can max my zoom and hunt for it on the map and it will outright show a blank space. Only searching for the restaurant's actual name will bring it up. But there's not really any alternative. Apple Maps can't show me things because it's missing…

> I feel like we're going back in time because the best way to find local restaurants has become walking / driving around the neighborhood to see what's there, or getting word of mouth recommendations.

Let's face it, that never stopped being the best way. There have always been problems with internet reviews, if only the ones inherent in the 1-5 star mechanism. But, it is very inconvenient to ask around for recommendations when you're (for example) hungry and passing through an unknown town or something. So I get why we need a source that isn't completely unreliable.

Re: Bay Area woman is on a crusade to prove Yelp reviews can’t be trusted

#203

Post by 2023throwawayy » Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 9:21 PM UTC

datadeft wrote: post #197

2023throwawayy wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that solves fake reviews... how?

I am pretty sure that we can use clustering for that. As they said there was a clear pattern the restaurant recognized. If they had all the data it would be easy. The reviewer could also ask for a token from the restaurant before submitting the review or a signature, there are plenty of options.

And what exactly does a blockchain provide here that a plain ole' database does not?

Re: Bay Area woman is on a crusade to prove Yelp reviews can’t be trusted

#204

Post by JJMcJ » Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 9:24 PM UTC

majormajor wrote: post #7

Good for her. Yelp's business model seems to work best if they can pick winners, which is unfortunate. If I search for "dinner" on Yelp for "current location" and look at the map, it leaves out an astonishing number of places that I can see within a mile if I drive down the street. And if your business model is centered around hiding all but the winners - who might pay for placement + reviews both - then you have to…

Also malicious reviews by competitors.

Re: Bay Area woman is on a crusade to prove Yelp reviews can’t be trusted

#205

Post by pessimizer » Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 9:24 PM UTC

1024core wrote: post #24

> Dean began documenting her findings, starting with serial offenders from the Facebook groups. In a list of 17 people who reviewed SavantCare on Yelp, she found what she called “a suspicious pattern”: 10 of them had reviewed the same dentist’s office in Los Angeles, nine had raved about the same California wedding DJ company and five claimed to have visited the same Mountain View tattoo parlor. Five of the accounts,…

Most of the "Yelp is extortion" line comes from businesses that have had good reviews hidden (that they probably gave people discounts for, or paid for.) Every good hidden review is seen as an outrage.

It'd be less controversial to kill bad reviews like this (because bad reviews often can be extortion or attacks on competitors), but the users would notice and also bitch. [edit: even worse, businesses that got bad reviews deleted by talking to Yelp might be characterized as "in bed with" Yelp.] A Yelp-like business is no-win imo. Voting isn't much of a signal if you let anybody who happens to walk by vote.

Re: Bay Area woman is on a crusade to prove Yelp reviews can’t be trusted

#206

Post by kelnos » Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 9:29 PM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #201

sophacles wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back in my bar-tending days we always told the door staff (bouncers) to slow down when checking IDs early in the evening, just to get a line going. It works surprisingly well for drawing in more customers. Totally tangential but follow-ups on that psychology: * some people would walk in and see the still mostly-empty bar and get fed up that they waited in line for "nothing". This was surprisingly few people though. *…

Utterly bizarre, yes. I think the psychological term for this is "social proof", and it applies to all sorts of weird things. For instance -- a person who is getting lots of flirty attention in public will tend to appear more attractive to others. Not because they are, but because seeing them get attention is social proof that they're worthy of attention. Once I became an old fart, I started seeing these lines as a s…

> Once I became an old fart...

This has been a process for me. I still occasionally succumb to the silliness, but for the most part when I see a line, my reaction is, "meh, I'm hungry/thirsty now; let's go somewhere else". One thing that's telling is that some of the places I already know I really enjoy rarely have lines or are completely busy.

And absolutely agree that you often find hidden gems that way. A lack of a line will often just mean the business is too inexperienced or honest to use some of the psychological manipulation practices the GP talks about.

Re: Bay Area woman is on a crusade to prove Yelp reviews can’t be trusted

#207

Post by kelnos » Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 9:33 PM UTC

gnicholas wrote: post #3

> A Yelp post from December 2017 was the first crucial clue. “Melissa R.” wrote, “I was offered money to leave a positive review for Savant Care Clinic. Must be a shady company.” The user attached Craigslist screenshots of the apparent offer, which Dean took her own screenshot of just before Yelp removed the post for violating its terms of service. Why would Yelp forbid people from talking about this? While it is cer…

I'm guessing the ToS violation was that the review wasn't about an actual visit to the business, but was just a report of a Cragslist ad the user saw about buying reviews.

I agree that this sort of information is useful for potential patrons to have, but can understand that Yelp wants their reviews to be about actual visits.

Re: Bay Area woman is on a crusade to prove Yelp reviews can’t be trusted

#208

Post by pessimizer » Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 9:35 PM UTC

majormajor wrote: post #7

Good for her. Yelp's business model seems to work best if they can pick winners, which is unfortunate. If I search for "dinner" on Yelp for "current location" and look at the map, it leaves out an astonishing number of places that I can see within a mile if I drive down the street. And if your business model is centered around hiding all but the winners - who might pay for placement + reviews both - then you have to…

> Yelp's business model seems to work best if they can pick winners,

People must have read a different article than I did. This woman is finding tons of third-parties that are either posting fake positive reviews for money, or extorting businesses by writing bad reviews and offering to reverse them for money. She's looking for people who are trying to scam Yelp, or trying to scam businesses through Yelp.

But HN seems stuck in a narrative (for a decade, not new) that Yelp is some sort of organized crime syndicate, and refuses to budge.

Re: Bay Area woman is on a crusade to prove Yelp reviews can’t be trusted

#209

Post by chinchilla2020 » Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 9:38 PM UTC

majormajor wrote: post #7

Good for her. Yelp's business model seems to work best if they can pick winners, which is unfortunate. If I search for "dinner" on Yelp for "current location" and look at the map, it leaves out an astonishing number of places that I can see within a mile if I drive down the street. And if your business model is centered around hiding all but the winners - who might pay for placement + reviews both - then you have to…

It gets worse. People have been 'following' the ratings when they rate foods.

A popular local restaurant came under new management and their food is now atrocious. We actually threw their food in the garbage after getting takeout there a month ago.

Meanwhile, tourists are still leaving thousands of rave reviews on their google maps page. Noticeably, you will see one or two bad reviews every 50 reviews or so, where a person comments about their confusion about the restaurants score.

Re: Bay Area woman is on a crusade to prove Yelp reviews can’t be trusted

#210

Post by chinchilla2020 » Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 9:40 PM UTC

telchior wrote: post #178

Guest9081239812 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google Maps is terrible for hiding results. I'll use the filter to show restaurants with a 4.5+ star rating, and it hides dozens of places 4.5+ stars while instead showing results 4.0 - 4.4 stars and even some that have no reviews at all. I find the arrogance insulting. You want to see 4.5+ star Japanese food restaurants? Well, I don't think that's best for you, and I'm going to replace some of those results with 4.1…

I despise Google Maps for this. I can know that a restaurant exists, zoom in on its block, search 'restaurants' -- nothing. It'll zoom out the map and show other stuff. Worse, I can max my zoom and hunt for it on the map and it will outright show a blank space. Only searching for the restaurant's actual name will bring it up. But there's not really any alternative. Apple Maps can't show me things because it's missing…

Internet search in general has severely declined in 2023. I was trying to figure out the syntax for putting a URL in slack the other day and couldn't find a proper article anywhere in the top 10 results.

I think they are trying to integrate their bard UI into search and it is killing the results.

At this point, I use google to search reddit in order to find organic results. Unfortunately, that will probably be taken over by spammers soon enough.