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Aleister Crowley and William Butler Yeats get into an occult battle (2016)

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Re: Aleister Crowley and William Butler Yeats get into an occult battle (2016)

#71
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll go out on a limb here because the alternative is recommending a load of Christian stuff in combination with Philosophy and Eastern theology. David Bentley Hart is quite good, and his book "You Are Gods" may well be what you're looking for. I haven't read that specific title though. I ought to, it's sitting in my bookcase.

I am a Sikh (this isn't the reason I am not so keen on christian literature, I've just already been exposed to a fair bit) so I would definitely be interested in some material related to Eastern faiths, I'll check out David Bentley Hart too.

I just picked up You are Gods and it's actually pretty dense stuff and would be a poor choice if you were tired of Christian thought (even if he winds Vedanta into it). It might be worth having a look at Bentley Hart on Wikipedia and seeing if some of his other work appeals. "The Experience of God" is very good, as is "The Beauty of the Infinite". But obviously he's writing from a Christian perspective. From a completely different tack, you might read the "Tripura Rahasya", that's a good Eastern book of mystical philosophy.

Some of the stuff I found most satisfying was proper modern Christian Apologetics, such as the Handbook of Catholic Apologetics. But the Eastern writing is excellent getting across the scale of the infinite and relating that to people on a personal level.

Re: Aleister Crowley and William Butler Yeats get into an occult battle (2016)

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any theological reading recommendations? Preferably not oriented (at least not wholly) around Christianity.

You might want to take a look at Rebuttal of the Logicians by Ibn Taymiyyah and The Incoherence of the Philosophers by Al-Ghazali, as far as classical Islamic theological works that have been translated, those will be your go to books but they're by no means introductory works.

That's a good shout. What are invaluable and in sadly limited supply are religious teachers who can explain things one on one. As a result of (amazingly and sadly) the Second World War, this sort of training fell out of fashion in seminaries, and led to all sorts of dire consequences.

Re: Aleister Crowley and William Butler Yeats get into an occult battle (2016)

#73
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it inevitably becomes about the drugs and sex, and not the spirituality.

I'd prefer if you actually made an argument to support that this happens, because this simply does not match my experience at all. And you just asserting otherwise doesn't change that. And why won't you reveal what this wonderful method of "squaring the circle" is, since you seem so confident in its superiority? You're coming off quite smug about it, without providing any substance to back it up.

Methods plural. I'm sorry if I'm coming off as smug - what I'm trying to get across is that a lot of people who have been failed by western religions in their desire for the numinous, and an understanding of how on earth it relates to everyday reality, can come across Crowley and buy into his approach. But actually, they might find that their own religious traditions have something that can do the job. Catholicism has a very serviceable mystical tradition, for example, even if things like Thomism and the persecution of the Beguines and the Quietists helped to make it less obvious.

Re: Aleister Crowley and William Butler Yeats get into an occult battle (2016)

#74
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it inevitably becomes about the drugs and sex, and not the spirituality.

I'd prefer if you actually made an argument to support that this happens, because this simply does not match my experience at all. And you just asserting otherwise doesn't change that. And why won't you reveal what this wonderful method of "squaring the circle" is, since you seem so confident in its superiority? You're coming off quite smug about it, without providing any substance to back it up.

As regards the drugs and sex, I'm speaking from personal experience of people I've known. Easy enough to google "Tantra Scandal" and find examples, but you could argue that plenty of individuals in mainstream religions have abused their authority in a similar way. I'd argue that it's more prevalent in the places focused directly on sex and drugs, but I don't have a study of any sort to back me up.

Re: Aleister Crowley and William Butler Yeats get into an occult battle (2016)

#76
post #47
post #9

For anyone insterested in reading Crowley, I was told Liber four is the most straightforward writing of his. His collection of poems "White Stains" is just amazing as well - mostly speaking about human secretions of all kinds and ingesting them. Edit:"White Stains, a collection of Crowley's poetry praised by W.B. Yeats, published in paperback for the first time, has been called 'the filthiest book of verse ever writt…

Your description makes me think it's a little gross. Is there something I'm missing as to why such poetry is worth reading?

No, I'm amazed by it's existence at all, I don't find it good - but I'm not a fan of poetry in general.

I think his other writing is more interesting to read, but White Stains is special in how foul it is. The fact it was written at all blows my mind.

Edit: I will add though, Crowley does have a peculiar and breathless way of writing that is noteworthy, but you'll find it in any of his works. And it's neat that he wrote White Stains both in english and in french and they are considered separate works!

Re: Aleister Crowley and William Butler Yeats get into an occult battle (2016)

#77
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd prefer if you actually made an argument to support that this happens, because this simply does not match my experience at all. And you just asserting otherwise doesn't change that. And why won't you reveal what this wonderful method of "squaring the circle" is, since you seem so confident in its superiority? You're coming off quite smug about it, without providing any substance to back it up.

Methods plural. I'm sorry if I'm coming off as smug - what I'm trying to get across is that a lot of people who have been failed by western religions in their desire for the numinous , and an understanding of how on earth it relates to everyday reality, can come across Crowley and buy into his approach. But actually, they might find that their own religious traditions have something that can do the job. Catholicism h…

Ok, I think I see where you're coming from. I think we're operating with a somewhat different idea of what the spiritual or numinous necessarily is or has to be. For me, mysticism was never all that appealing, regardless of what tradition it came from. I guess the mystic whose thought I'm most familiar with is Terence Mckenna, but I always ingested his thought with a sort of mysticism filter applied. I thought he had a lot of deep insights into some of the deeper paradoxes of our cultural fabric, and how they're illuminated by entheogenic drugs, but then he always had to go to some kind of crazy shamanistic new age crackpot place with it.

To me, the spiritual is more about integrating the internal world with the external, the present with our evolutionary past, the individual with the collective, the irrational and primal with the rational and civilised.

In my younger years, I was very judgemental of religion; I just didn't see any value, and saw it merely as obsolete intellectual baggage. I felt a distinct superiority from being free of this epistemic crutch. This actually changed over night when I took psychedelics for the first time(AMT, if anyone's curious). I had a powerful religious experience, felt a presence, "the love of god shining down on me", whatever the cliches are people use to describe experiences like this. This didn't affect my atheism, strengthened it if anything, but it did show me some of the value the religious find in their beliefs, and I gained a lot of respect for them. It also exposed one of the fundamental human paradoxes I mentioned above, namely the relationship between the internal world and the external world. And I've found drugs helpful in exploring that tension, as well as other tensions like some of the cultural delusions we all inevitably believe in one form or another.

Sex(the wilder the better) is similar in the sense that it makes nakedly(ha) obvious the fundamental paradox between being an animal and living in a civilisation. After all, how can you understand the human experience without first understanding the animal experience upon which it is built?

I could go on about this, but it's getting long winded, so I hope that sheds some light on why I think drugs and sex are valid "spiritual tools". There are many others too for sure. Like art, for instance. And not every tool is for everyone, of course.

I do agree that overt focus on one tool or perspective(I.e only living like an animal) can often lead one astray, and I've certainly gone astray myself. But I don't think it's inevitable. I think they more easily lead people astray when they end up in bubbles, like you hinted at. There's a process that's sort of analogous to how groups in social media end up being echo chambers with extreme views. I think this is a direct consequence of taboos built into Western society causing various groups too strongly self-isolate.

Re: Aleister Crowley and William Butler Yeats get into an occult battle (2016)

#78
post #59
post #9

For anyone insterested in reading Crowley, I was told Liber four is the most straightforward writing of his. His collection of poems "White Stains" is just amazing as well - mostly speaking about human secretions of all kinds and ingesting them. Edit:"White Stains, a collection of Crowley's poetry praised by W.B. Yeats, published in paperback for the first time, has been called 'the filthiest book of verse ever writt…

Book 4 isn't a bad place, but Magick in Theory and Practice is more approachable as a first read. It was written as a series of letters to a female student, and Crowley's Victorian attitudes about the intellect of women made it so it was basically an ELI5.

I'll be sure to go and check that out!

Somewhat unrelated, I'm going through Liber Null, from Pter J Caroll and I find it pretty solid, did you ever read it? It's not Thelema but it's prett close.

Re: Aleister Crowley and William Butler Yeats get into an occult battle (2016)

#79
post #54
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you say he fooled all the people with magic, and he waited on Satan's call? > Someone asked why Crowley is perennially popular on HN. Because people are waiting for a Marvel to take them to space.

He certainly didn't fool all the people. And those he did fool were largely fooled by sophistry, not magic.

True, but there remains value in questions on the mode of thought that leads to such activities: "Mr. Crowley, what went on in your head?" And, too, given the general preoccupation necromancy seems to exercise both on practitioners in learned circles and on the public imagination, it's not a surprise to see so often asked, "Mr. Crowley, did you talk to the dead?"

Re: Aleister Crowley and William Butler Yeats get into an occult battle (2016)

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any theological reading recommendations? Preferably not oriented (at least not wholly) around Christianity.

You might want to take a look at Rebuttal of the Logicians by Ibn Taymiyyah and The Incoherence of the Philosophers by Al-Ghazali, as far as classical Islamic theological works that have been translated, those will be your go to books but they're by no means introductory works.

As a contrast to those works, Summa Contra Gentiles by Aquinas would be a good follow up.

Then to pull both together try Christian-Islamic Preambles of Faith - An Exercise in Philosophy of Religion or Kalâm for Our Day Modeled after Thomas Aquinas, Summa Contra Gentiles, Books I-III by Joseph Kenny, OP.

https://www.crvp.org/publications/Series-IIA/IIA-10-Contents...

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