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The Reddit blackout will continue

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Re: The Reddit blackout will continue

#241

Post by hutzlibu »

slg wrote: post #217
mjburgess wrote: post #56

The first 10 years of the internet were volunteers creating for other volunteers. The next 10 was volunteers for 'users'. The last 10, for corporations. The commons built in the 90s was turned into a playground in the 2000s and is now a oil well being mined by megacorps. What, I hope, interest rates are doing is shifting the balance of power to its natural point: the commons is owned by the volunteers. Megacorp's abi…

>The first 10 years of the internet were volunteers creating for other volunteers. The next 10 was volunteers for 'users'. The last 10, for corporations. And the next 10 years will remove the volunteers entirely. AI will be the one creating the content for the corporations. That seems inevitable at this point. We have already been on that path for a while with the spread of algorithmic feeds. First we removed the hum…

But in the end, it is about users who pay directly or indirectly (ads).

And they won't pay, if the content is not interesting.

So if AI creates interesting content and the users are happy to consume that, well fine for them.

But I think most people want actually more. Or at least, enough people want genuine human interactions, so AI taking over of the corporate "social media" will just create social networks that do care about that human touch.

Re: The Reddit blackout will continue

#243

Post by dale_glass »

azangru wrote: post #215
telltruth wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The data created by people should be owned by people. They should have right to decide if it can be distributed free or with charge through APIs, archrivals etc. I absolutely don't understand how Reddit, Twitter, Yelp etc think that they own the data and be the gatekeeper for the content they didn't create.

> I absolutely don't understand how Reddit, Twitter, Yelp etc think that they own the data and be the gatekeeper for the content they didn't create. Suppose you are hosting a wordpress blog with a comments section. Some people leave occasional comments in your blog — god knows why. Some people may even start arguing with each other in the comments section. Their comments are stored on your server. Don't you own them?…

> Some people may even start arguing with each other in the comments section. Their comments are stored on your server. Don't you own them?

Kinda no. As per copyright law, each comment is automatically copyrighted by the poster. If somebody slips up and pastes their novel in a comment, that doesn't grant you permission to print and sell it.

> Can't you delete them? Can't you disable the comments any time you wish?

That you can

> Now scale this mentally to reddit, etc. At which point do you start arguing that the service doesn't own the data that it stores?

Copyright law always applies, and the post are always the property of their writer. The site has a license to use them in a limited fashion. To try to do otherwise is likely a terrible idea.

I'd argue while it's fuzzy, there's a distinction between people coming to your blog because it's your blog and leaving a "This!" or a question, and people building their own community on your infrastructure.

Eg, you probably don't want to grant that AWS owns your entire website just because it's hosted on it, right? The main thing about your website is your work, AWS is merely the replaceable infrastructure to run it.

Re: The Reddit blackout will continue

#244

Post by paulmd »

null0pointer wrote: post #232

What is Reddit’s plan? They seem to simultaneously hold two conflicting ideas: 1. Third party app users represent significant enough lost revenue to make it worth making the API prohibitively expensive for third party apps to run, forcing those users back to the official app. 2. Third party apps users are few enough that Reddit can afford to not compromise and lose those users just to kill off third party apps. Are t…

The plan is to turn Reddit into TikTok. The site is being pivoted away from being a social message board to being a scrolling content dripfeed. Get the eyes in the native app and get the ads going. That’s the value that’s being lost via third-party apps.

The only subs that really matter in this context are the frontpage top-100 subs, and it’s not like there’s any real intensive discussion over some cat pic or earthporn.

The hobby subs are fine and generally adds value, it’s not like they’re going to remove them, but it’s not where the site’s primary engagement is going to be in another year or two.

If they lose 25% of users and quadruple the revenue from the remaining users - that’s a massive win for them. And this is where the 90-9-1 rule works against you, because most users are going to stay, because they’re just scrolling cat pics anyway, and none of this really affects them. That’s the calculation. Most will stay, and they’ll make a lot more revenue per user that way.

And in the grand scheme of things… there will be enough content in a month or two to keep people busy. This too shall pass.

Re: The Reddit blackout will continue

#245

Post by hutzlibu »

jaimex2 wrote: post #231
lmm wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I can see Wikipedia has even worse relations with its users/contributors than twitter/reddit/facebook/et al..

how so? genuine question, it looks rosy from the outside.

There is certainly lots of drama going on, but I am unaware of anything remotely dramatic or open fight/strike like is happening on reddit between users and company (non profit foundation).

Re: The Reddit blackout will continue

#246

Post by Mashimo »

aniforprez wrote: post #116
frankacter wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not accurate. From the data presented, in aggregate, >90% fall well within the free tier of usage (100 API calls per minute for OAuth logged in client). The majority of the remaining fall into a $1/month tier [1]. Certainly there are some outliers that exceed those ranges and unfortunately the majority of the spotlight seems to be on the smallest of the populace. It is also worth noting that app developers ca…

Why would you take the word of reddit management on this issue? That seems like the least trustworthy source here

How many request per minute do you think most apps make when casually browsing reddit?

Re: The Reddit blackout will continue

#247

Post by yanderekko »

paulmd wrote: post #167
paganel wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s impressive how their CEO keeps shooting himself in the foot on this one You don't negotiate with blackmailers, because this is what this is now, blackmail. If things continue like this I give it 5 to 7 days until reddit the company forcefully removes these mods.

Yeah it’s now “oh and maybe we’ll do ‘touch grass tuesdays’ in perpetuity”. That’s an incredibly unsympathetic message imo. Get real. If anyone thinks a business is going to tolerate a clique of powermods choosing to randomly shut things down according to their own schedule… they’re gonna be disappointed. Let alone I’ve seen some people thinking they can demand a hand in the corporate governance? Yeah fuck no powermo…

Importantly, the powerjannies aren't a monolithic bloc, and many of them are already vocally critical of the notion of an ongoing blackout. I'd expect that they know that if some of them get removed then other powermods will eagerly move in to claim their territories. There's not going to be some sort of class solidarity here - continuing the protests will be tantamount to resigning as a mod, you're just being dramatic about it.

Re: The Reddit blackout will continue

#248

Post by seydor »

Timon3 wrote: post #183
seydor wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's always like that -- reddit users always like drama so i did not expect they would vote otherwise. i think the whole idea is bad though Reddit has much bigger problems to solve. First and foremost, that users have no recourse from moderation abuses, and this is killing the community more than the API changes.

If the people voted for it, how are the mods holding them hostage? Both the mods and the people want it.

voted for 2 days, right?

Re: The Reddit blackout will continue

#249

Post by trompetenaccoun »

telltruth wrote: post #163
mjburgess wrote: post #56

The first 10 years of the internet were volunteers creating for other volunteers. The next 10 was volunteers for 'users'. The last 10, for corporations. The commons built in the 90s was turned into a playground in the 2000s and is now a oil well being mined by megacorps. What, I hope, interest rates are doing is shifting the balance of power to its natural point: the commons is owned by the volunteers. Megacorp's abi…

The data created by people should be owned by people. They should have right to decide if it can be distributed free or with charge through APIs, archrivals etc. I absolutely don't understand how Reddit, Twitter, Yelp etc think that they own the data and be the gatekeeper for the content they didn't create.

The reason they assume they own our data is that when social media platforms became popular, they put these rights in their terms and got away with it, because most of us don't read the legal fine print. But now more and more are waking up to the fact that we got a bad deal. Take a look at Reddit's ToS for example (HN has a similar clause btw):

>By submitting user content to reddit, you grant us a royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, unrestricted, worldwide license to reproduce, prepare derivative works, distribute copies, perform, or publicly display your user content in any medium and for any purpose, including commercial purposes, and to authorize others to do so.

By moving to self-hosting through protocols like IPFS or Arweave, and having social applications built on top, two problems can be solved at once.

1. Your data isn't locked in anymore. All your social media posts, images, etc can be shared with multiple platforms at the same time. If you quit one of them your data won't disappear because all you did is grant them access, it's still in your control. This completely eliminated the issue with moving apps and having to start anew each time.

2. You can be in control of all rights. You can grant the platforms non-exclusive licenses if you see a benefit in that, or you can restrict them from making money with your content without paying you royalties. It's all up to the user.

Re: The Reddit blackout will continue

#250

Post by makeitdouble »

azangru wrote: post #205
4dregress wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't agree with this enough. The internet today is a cesspit, it needs a git reset hard back to the days when communities were based around forums. I made a lot of real life friends from the forums I frequented. Oh the good old days :(

> it needs a git reset hard back to the days when communities were based around forums What's stopping anyone today to have a community around a forum? phpBB still exists...

The friction and the money perhaps.

I found the story of Hive (the social network) fascinating in that it was basically that idea of someone jumping in, learning the ropes, building a platform. And getting crushed under how much knowledge and effort, ultimately money, is needed to run a decent platform.

Their team was truely incompetent, but looking under the surface they were really a group of a few amateurs trying to do something, and it's only after the backlash that they realized a whole team of well experienced engineers is needed for anything touching user info.

I'd imagine trying to run a raw phpBB on the web today would be in the same vein ?

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