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A Baking Soda Solution for Clean Hydrogen Storage

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Re: A Baking Soda Solution for Clean Hydrogen Storage

#2

Post by scythe »

This is remarkably hard to follow. The actual technology at play here is bicarbonate-formate redox; as the linked paper states:

>It is also clear that more integration between the disciplines of electrochemistry and heterogeneous catalysis is needed to overcome the challenges for advancing the HCO3−–HCO2− system as a feasible green alternative for storing and transporting energy.

The idea of storing energy by converting bicarbonate to formate has already occurred to me years ago and probably was thought of by thousands of other scientists, because formate is one of the most common hydrogen precursors used in practical chemistry. The storage density is low, but the materials are extremely cheap and stable. Unfortunately, the paper does not seem to be announcing a breakthrough, but tallying up the current progress — which just isn't there yet.

https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2023/gc/d3gc0...

Re: A Baking Soda Solution for Clean Hydrogen Storage

#3

Post by jfengel »

scythe wrote: post #2

This is remarkably hard to follow. The actual technology at play here is bicarbonate-formate redox; as the linked paper states: >It is also clear that more integration between the disciplines of electrochemistry and heterogeneous catalysis is needed to overcome the challenges for advancing the HCO3−–HCO2− system as a feasible green alternative for storing and transporting energy. The idea of storing energy by convert…

I suppose... a "hydrogen battery" for solar? Build up formate (in solution? As a salt?) during the day, then burn it at night for electricity?

Re: A Baking Soda Solution for Clean Hydrogen Storage

#4

Post by rfgmendoza »

jfengel wrote: post #3
scythe wrote: post #2

This is remarkably hard to follow. The actual technology at play here is bicarbonate-formate redox; as the linked paper states: >It is also clear that more integration between the disciplines of electrochemistry and heterogeneous catalysis is needed to overcome the challenges for advancing the HCO3−–HCO2− system as a feasible green alternative for storing and transporting energy. The idea of storing energy by convert…

I suppose... a "hydrogen battery" for solar? Build up formate (in solution? As a salt?) during the day, then burn it at night for electricity?

density is not really a critical factor for grid level or onsite energy storage, so it could be feasible in theory

Re: A Baking Soda Solution for Clean Hydrogen Storage

#6

Post by photochemsyn »

Hydrogen is needed for all kinds of industrial processes, but it is best generated at the point of use as needed, as storage and transport is too problematic. If absoultely needed, the most obvious way to ship hydrogen is as methane.

Synthesis of methane from water-sourced hydrogen and atmosphere-sourced CO2 is at present a good deal more expensive than fossil natural gas, but that's a somewhat artificial situation: natural gas production is heavily subsidized and many of the costs are externalized to the public (see global warming, air and water pollution, etc.). However, once accomplished you can just feed this renewable methane into the existing natural gas infrastructure, and get the hydrogen back as needed from well-understood processes, i.e. steam-methane reforming.

Re: A Baking Soda Solution for Clean Hydrogen Storage

#7

Post by hannob »

photochemsyn wrote: post #6

Hydrogen is needed for all kinds of industrial processes, but it is best generated at the point of use as needed, as storage and transport is too problematic. If absoultely needed, the most obvious way to ship hydrogen is as methane. Synthesis of methane from water-sourced hydrogen and atmosphere-sourced CO2 is at present a good deal more expensive than fossil natural gas, but that's a somewhat artificial situation:…

> If absoultely needed, the most obvious way to ship hydrogen is as methane.

Methane has 2 problems: 1. it's a massive greenhouse gas if it leaks, 2. it requires CO2 to make, and in a decarbonized future that can only come from either biomass (limited) or DAC (expensive).

You would either want ammonia or methanol. Ammonia does not have any of these problems, but it's very toxic. Methanol has the CO2 problem as well, but it's a liquid, so it's easier to transport. Neither is perfect, but there are no perfect solutions.

Methane is the worst of all options. If you want a hydrocarbon, then usually methanol is what you want. And don't trust me on that, just look at what projects are actually planned out there. Plenty of green ammonia and green methanol projects, green methane is exotic at best, barely anyone wants to do that.

Re: A Baking Soda Solution for Clean Hydrogen Storage

#9

Post by elcritch »

rfgmendoza wrote: post #4
jfengel wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose... a "hydrogen battery" for solar? Build up formate (in solution? As a salt?) during the day, then burn it at night for electricity?

density is not really a critical factor for grid level or onsite energy storage, so it could be feasible in theory

As long as the electrodes / membranes for the conversion to electricity are stable and cheap as well. There's a big downside with PEM electrodes requiring platinum and with their longevity and energy density relative to capex.
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