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Apollo’s Christian Selig explains his fight with Reddit – and why users revolted

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Re: Apollo’s Christian Selig explains his fight with Reddit – and why users revolted

#161
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they really think it's reasonable? I presumed it was meant to kill off third party clients.

I’m just following Christian’s good faith interpretation. But it’s absolutely clear it was done to kill 3P clients. It’s hilarious that certain bots would be exempt and free from the price hike. Spez called out the Haikubot by name. Look those bots are cute. But it has to query every single sub and every single comment every few minutes to work. If Reddit truly cares about waste and inefficiency those would be the fi…

I don't think this is inconsistent at all. Bots don't look at or click on ads. Bots don't engage or create community. Bots don't buy awards. Bot querying is a drop in the ocean compared to real people.

Re: Apollo’s Christian Selig explains his fight with Reddit – and why users revolted

#162
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's clear he is blackmailing them and the upset users are his leverage. After posting that "Apollo will close down on June 30th." he now says " Same as always : I love building Apollo, and if Reddit is willing to to talk I'm happy to as well." which of course was not what he always said. He was never joking about asking for 10 million dollars and is still hoping for an offer.

It seems you don’t really see the power dynamics here. Reddit holds all the power: they have the API, they can shut anyone out of it, they can ask for it whatever they want, they could even re-open all closed subreddits and install new mods. All the community and Apollo has is the power to say “Reddit, if you don’t play nice, we’ll walk away”. To call that a blackmail requires some mental gymnastics.

Nope, Reddit currently has a bunch of their subreddits private. And if the Apollo dev gets paid, then he can come up with something to make the blackout go away. That's the leverage he has to ask for money. It's what he implied in the call he had recorded, and he keeps indicating he's open to an offer. If reddit goes back to normal before he has an offer then that's when he has no leverage anymore.

Re: Apollo’s Christian Selig explains his fight with Reddit – and why users revolted

#163
It's so weird that this revenue generating app is the poster child for Reddit admins abusing third parties or whatever. They literally made money for years, almost completely unbothered by Reddit inc, with their own ads and subscription model. I just don't get it, this is not some open source app getting mauled by a corporate behemoth. Apollo probably made more profit from Reddit than Reddit itself.

And yes I know, Reddit could have rolled their own ads in the API but... Literally no one does that. Reddit ads are already extremely cheap (read, worthless to advertisers) as it is. No one would trust an ad network that has no control over how it displays and tracks said apps. I run Adblock everywhere so I'm not particularly sad about ads being worthless, but it still matters for Reddit inc.

Now obviously apollo was well within its rights to profit from their app but you can't have your cake and eat it too: you can't expect to generate profit from another business unilaterally forever and be shocked that they won't allow it.

Now before someone calls me a shill, I will literally never use Reddit after the API change since for me Reddit is just Reddit Is Fun. Without it, the whole website is unusable. And I'm extremely critical of Reddit in general. But this is just weird, this is a business deal that has turned into some sort of martyrdom. As people have said countless times in other situations where people had issues with reddit; just use another platform.

(Or at least advocate for open source apps API access. For me the ideal solution would be apps with a bring your own API key model. And I really think there are two discussions that have been getting mixed up: commercial use for the API like Apollo's and general access for third parties. One I don't care about, the other is crucial to me using Reddit.)

Re: Apollo’s Christian Selig explains his fight with Reddit – and why users revolted

#164

They buried the lede. The article suggests the shutdown was because of free API to paid API. Anyone uninformed who just click off at that point. Even when they ask about costs, it was just saying it’s “ But the issue is two fold. (1) all the devs support a paid API, but the rate is absurd according to basic math. It would charge devs over 20x what a user actually cost/were worth. Devs were willing to take on a higher…

It's funny when I design my own public apps, I'm careful about API usage. I can only imagine what an app is like that was designed with no API limits whatsoever. It's kind of amazing Reddit ever allowed this sort of no limits API usage - while at the same time Apollo charged their own users while enjoying zero infrastructure costs. What a steal.

How is 345 calls/day—much lower than the official app's usage—that much when the server indicates that 60 calls/minute is all good?

Re: Apollo’s Christian Selig explains his fight with Reddit – and why users revolted

#165
post #74
post #2

It absolutely amazes me how badly reddit has handled this whole situation. From the years of broken promises to moderators, the complete lack of accessibility in their own apps, and then on top of their for their CEO to not only get caught in a major lie but for him to then double down on it. As much as reddit wants to make these developers into the bad guys, every move they've made in this mess has hurt their reputa…

Devil's advocate... From the bits of transcript I saw, a plausible interpretation is that the Reddit person immediately felt like it was a shakedown, then Selig said it wasn't that (maybe true, maybe not), and then the Reddit person said words of apology but it is plausible that they still felt like it was a shakedown, and were only trying to deescalate/steer/negotiate . If they still thought it was a shakedown, it w…

Your interpretation sounds reasonable until you consider the fact that Reddit led with the “shakedown” (to use your word). Here’s a shortened version of the exchange:

Reddit: You will now pay us $20 million per year or we’re shutting you down. You have 30 days notice. Apollo: If Apollo is really costing you $20 million per year, you could pay us $10 million to stop, and you’d come out way ahead! I’m half joking.

Reddit: Are you threatening us?!

Apollo: No, I was just jokingly making a point.

Reddit: “Oh, I misunderstood. I immediately apologize.”

Reddit (to mods publicly): This guy is threatening us!

=======

Wait, what?

Who’s threatening who????

Re: Apollo’s Christian Selig explains his fight with Reddit – and why users revolted

#166
post #56
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also the normal way to introduce pricing to free services is to make it initially super-cheap so the majority will find it reasonable. Then overtime increase prices as you get a better sense of value and market dynamics. Starting high, creating a lot of negative reactions and almost killing any real market for profitable apps on your platform seems to be the opposite of smart. It’s now some governments go with taxati…

> Starting high, creating a lot of negative reactions and almost killing any real market for profitable apps on your platform seems to be the opposite of smart It's really dumb if the point is to keep all the third party applications that made your platform popular. It's much smarter if the point is to kill them all in favor of your first party app, that you are promising your VC investors will have tremendous growth…

Surprised growth is measured in terms of app installs versus active users by VCs. It’s probably both I suppose.

Re: Apollo’s Christian Selig explains his fight with Reddit – and why users revolted

#167
post #59
post #21

The part about him already selling 50K annual subscriptions to Apollo is the interesting one in the piece, and explains the decision to discontinue the app. He entered into a contract with users assuming that his API costs would be 0. He can't change that contract and start charging another fee on top, and is obligated to continue to provide the service no matter what Reddit now decides to charge him. So the solution…

> So the solution is easy for any laywer to provide - just shut down the business. I don't really agree with that take. He's already talked about what happens now, and it includes refunds for unused subscription time. > I've been talking to my rep at Apple, and over the next few weeks my plan is to release something similar to what Tweetbot did (Paul has been incredibly helpful in all of this) where folks can decide…

It's not some hot take but exactly what the developer said in the interview. Continuing to provide service to users who have already paid would be too expensive, and so shutting the app down (and giving optional refunds) is the cheaper way out.

Re: Apollo’s Christian Selig explains his fight with Reddit – and why users revolted

#168

They buried the lede. The article suggests the shutdown was because of free API to paid API. Anyone uninformed who just click off at that point. Even when they ask about costs, it was just saying it’s “ But the issue is two fold. (1) all the devs support a paid API, but the rate is absurd according to basic math. It would charge devs over 20x what a user actually cost/were worth. Devs were willing to take on a higher…

> it would charge devs over 20x what a user actually cost/were worth

This is Selig's estimate based on not much info. Numbers like "20x" are completely made up.

Re: Apollo’s Christian Selig explains his fight with Reddit – and why users revolted

#169
post #80
post #4

IMO, he’s doing a pretty good job negotiating this as well. I know there’s a lot of words right now about broken promises and everyone not wanting to do business with anyone else, but from the outside to this uninformed observer it looks to me like this is a high stakes showdown that’s inching toward a commercial resolution. There’s some dollar amount (representing either an exchange of value or avoided losses) where…

It's clear he is blackmailing them and the upset users are his leverage. After posting that "Apollo will close down on June 30th." he now says " Same as always : I love building Apollo, and if Reddit is willing to to talk I'm happy to as well." which of course was not what he always said. He was never joking about asking for 10 million dollars and is still hoping for an offer.

You might claim that’s extortion, but it clearly isn’t blackmail, unless you think he’s got even more dirt on reddit that he hasn’t publicly revealed.

Re: Apollo’s Christian Selig explains his fight with Reddit – and why users revolted

#170
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does there need to be a paid API, when reddit provides all of the content over a free HTTP API to user agents already? Are these apps more than just a custom user agent?

The straight answer is that ads are embedded in the "HTTP API" and the vast majority of browser users don't have adblock, and Reddit can't force ads on any API users (except through the official app).

> Reddit can't force ads on any API users (except through the official app).

They absolutely could make ads part of the API that third party applications have to display.

There's a hundred things they could do if you assume they care about third-party applications, and don't specifically want to kill them.

I do think they want to kill them, actively, but even beyond that it's really clear they don't care.

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