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A developer's view of Vision Pro

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Re: A developer's view of Vision Pro

#331

Post by cassianoleal »

ladberg wrote: post #156
losvedir wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For the past week I've been trying to explain to people how certain I am that doing work in headsets will become mainstream This gets at my main question about this: does it feel to you like it will be great for "doing work", which generally happens at discrete places, or something which will apply to life generally, which is the kind of (some would say dystopian) ideal of "augmented reality"? Or put another way, I…

I think it'll be great for "doing work", but I'm not entirely sure if it'll immediately outclass my in-office setup that my employer has already spent thousands on. However, I don't have a wfh setup in my small apartment because I didn't want to dedicate space for that purpose, so when I occasionally need to wfh I just use a laptop on my couch or dining table and I would love it to replace that. I think if an employe…

> when I occasionally need to wfh I just use a laptop on my couch or dining table and I would love it to replace that

The most important part of a WFH setup is desk + chair. That's where the comfort is, much more so than a big screen - which is certainly nice.

Desk + chair is what takes up space though. Once that space is taken, a big monitor is just something you put on it.

As excited I am about this new tech, which looks fantastic from the ad, I don't think it will replace a comfortable desk + chair setup.

Re: A developer's view of Vision Pro

#332

Post by cassianoleal »

jayd16 wrote: post #272
madeofpalk wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we count that then we count an iPad remote-deskoping into a Mac, which severly limits the actual use.

This isn't correct. The AVP can run apps side by side so you can have a window for xcode open along side your app. With the iPad you only get one app at a time, which is a bummer. (Even if you had multiple windows open only one app can have the full screen experience at once. Beyond that, even though an iPad can act as another monitor, it's not a big monitor. It doesn't really achieve the ideal of a workstation repla…

Can it? The ad showed 1 single virtual window that acted as a mirror for the macbook's screen. It never showed 2 mac apps side-by-side, each in their own independent virtual window.

Re: A developer's view of Vision Pro

#333

Post by Kon5ole »

wkat4242 wrote: post #186
pilsetnieks wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gruber claims that it has the exact same FOV as actual human vision, and no discernible pixels. https://daringfireball.net/2023/06/first_impressions_of_visi...

That can't be right. The human FoV is huge, more than 180 degrees. To cover that range without visible pixels requires much more than "4k" type resolution. Either one of those statements can be right. Not both at the same time. It's time someone with real measuring equipment looks at of these and gives a more technical review than just "wow Apple magic".

> That can't be right. The human FoV is huge, more than 180 degrees. To cover that range without visible pixels requires much more than "4k" type resolution.

I'm not so sure. Human vision is only sharp in a coin-sized area at any time. If you fix your eyes on a single word in your comment you can't actually read the entire comment, for example.

In other words, you don't need 4k in your entire FOV you just need to ensure that most of the pixels are spent in the middle of the viewing area.

I believe that it would be possible to have the screens in the headset generate a very distorted image, where the edges are compressed to a small area of the actual screen and therefore low-res, while the lenses stretch this image to fill the viewing FOV. Kind of like anamorphic movie lenses, or even how wideangle lenses distort the edges more than the center.

I have no idea if Vision Pro does this but it seems theoretically possible at least.

Re: A developer's view of Vision Pro

#334

Post by BulgarianIdiot »

musictubes wrote: post #305
BulgarianIdiot wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I admire the commitment to your opinions lol. Never really sure what motivates someone to tell the world what they aren't interested in using. My snark was aimed at highlighting the weirdness of how important you thought it was for us to know what you hate. It's almost as though you're explaining why current and previous VR goggles haven't done very well. David Smith, among others, have had some experience with the d…

[dead]

Re: A developer's view of Vision Pro

#335

Post by pilsetnieks »

Kon5ole wrote: post #333
wkat4242 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That can't be right. The human FoV is huge, more than 180 degrees. To cover that range without visible pixels requires much more than "4k" type resolution. Either one of those statements can be right. Not both at the same time. It's time someone with real measuring equipment looks at of these and gives a more technical review than just "wow Apple magic".

> That can't be right. The human FoV is huge, more than 180 degrees. To cover that range without visible pixels requires much more than "4k" type resolution. I'm not so sure. Human vision is only sharp in a coin-sized area at any time. If you fix your eyes on a single word in your comment you can't actually read the entire comment, for example. In other words, you don't need 4k in your entire FOV you just need to ens…

That's called foveated rendering, and it's exactly what the Apple headset does, they mention it here: https://developer.apple.com/visionos/

Re: A developer's view of Vision Pro

#336

Post by BulgarianIdiot »

greedo wrote: post #302
BulgarianIdiot wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You keep illustrating that you didn't view the keynote, or any of the followup videos and are just judging based on your priors. Clearly you haven't seen the VP in person, or you wouldn't be making such assumptions. I'm not, I'm trusting people who have used the device in person, people who have said the text is very sharp and easy to read. People with much better credentials than a random on HN. And if you had done…

[dead]

Re: A developer's view of Vision Pro

#337

Post by wkat4242 »

pilsetnieks wrote: post #335
Kon5ole wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That can't be right. The human FoV is huge, more than 180 degrees. To cover that range without visible pixels requires much more than "4k" type resolution. I'm not so sure. Human vision is only sharp in a coin-sized area at any time. If you fix your eyes on a single word in your comment you can't actually read the entire comment, for example. In other words, you don't need 4k in your entire FOV you just need to ens…

That's called foveated rendering, and it's exactly what the Apple headset does, they mention it here: https://developer.apple.com/visionos/

For foveated rendering you still need good pixels everywhere in case you're looking to the sides.

I think what the OP means is that you'd have actually less physical resolution in the sides. Most headsets do this somewhat but not in a huge amount.

Re: A developer's view of Vision Pro

#338

Post by senttoschool »

cassianoleal wrote: post #332
jayd16 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't correct. The AVP can run apps side by side so you can have a window for xcode open along side your app. With the iPad you only get one app at a time, which is a bummer. (Even if you had multiple windows open only one app can have the full screen experience at once. Beyond that, even though an iPad can act as another monitor, it's not a big monitor. It doesn't really achieve the ideal of a workstation repla…

Can it? The ad showed 1 single virtual window that acted as a mirror for the macbook's screen. It never showed 2 mac apps side-by-side, each in their own independent virtual window.

This is my question as well. Is this just showing just going to show one screen with the entire macOS in it? Or will we be able to individually project different macOS apps onto the canvas?

Re: A developer's view of Vision Pro

#339

Post by mmlkrx »

ladberg wrote: post #260
mmlkrx wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for answering all these little questions, hope I'm not too late :) 1. Could I take a disconnected cable keyboard and "anchor" the virtual keyboard to overlay the real one to get the haptical feedback when typing on the virtual keyboard? 2. I'm very excited about "hanging out in VR" but initial impressions of Persona avatars seem to be mixed. Do you think people will eventually get used to Personas after usi…

1. I don't really know of any feature like this but can't say for certain. I'd highly recommend investing in a bluetooth keyboard for work in the headset (or keep your cable keyboard plugged into your computer and mirror the screen into the headset). 2. Honestly no clue how the public will react to Apple's avatars, but keep in mind that third party apps are free to create experiences like that and I'm sure you'll see…

Awesome, thanks for answering! And yes, question one was also partly motivated by gaming :) I understand it doesn't ship with controllers, but I was wondering if the cameras/depth sensors/software are good enough to recognize and track for example a ping pong paddle.

Apart from that, I really hope Apple will work with more game engines in the future. I rented an HTC Vive Pro 2 last year just to play through Half Life Alyx and everything about this experience was so, so good (especially Jeff). Would be incredible if it ran on the Vision Pro eventually but I guess Source 2 is probably not on the engine list :)

One last question I actually had if you don't mind. How do you think gestures will evolve once the headset releases? I understand there are a few basic gestures defined already, like clicking, dragging, zooming, but what about cmd + Z or deleting something. I'm sure eventually people will expect the same gestures for those actions across apps but I didn't see any mention on them so far. Any thoughts on how those might emerge?

Re: A developer's view of Vision Pro

#340

Post by tikimcfee »

theaussiestew wrote: post #311
tikimcfee wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like I’ve been spamming this everywhere and any time I get the chance, but I really want people to join in and help define this experience with me for developers. https://github.com/tikimcfee/LookAtThat AR VR for iOS and macOS. Millions of glyphs. Instant control. There’s magic here. If this excites you, work with me and help make this a reality! I don’t have all of it in me. I wish I did. I don’t. I don’t hav…

I've been wanting to make this kind of thing for a while now. Basically canvas and 3D view for code. This looks super cool, but I was more thinking for a general platform like VSCode, rather than something limited to the MacOS eco-system. What's the best way to get in touch with you?

Totally feel ya there. If I had a different sorta history, I would have like to have started with something like d3 or even Unity… alas, poor me, heh. I’d love to chat! My email’s fairly public, so feel free to ping me at thelugos @pm.me (no space).
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