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Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

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Re: Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

#91

Post by redthrowaway »

tlb wrote: post #39
redthrowaway wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really no different than early fuel-injected cars being damaged by running out of gas. The solution? Don't run out of fucking gas. That didn't stop fuel injection from becoming the dominant technology, and neither will this halt the rise of EVs.

It's a little different. Replacing the fuel pump and injectors cost maybe 5% of the cost of the vehicle. Replacing roadster batteries costs 40%.

Repair cost doesn't matter. It's up to the owner not to be an idiot, and to take care of the vehicle. The vast majority of owners of early fuel-injected cars knew not to let them run out of gas, and didn't. Similarly, when Tesla tells you not to let the battery go completely flat, you take care of your property and follow their instructions.

If I leave my house long enough, the roof will decay and I'll get massive water damage. Halfway-intelligent homeowners know they need to get their roof done once in a while. Bike owners know that if they leave their bike in the rain, it will rust.

Many of the trappings of modern day life require active measures to ensure they work properly, and this is no different.

Re: Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

#92

Post by wtallis »

sbov wrote: post #56
bittermang wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non sequitur. While the circumstances surrounding the different engines and technology are wildly different, it doesn't change the root issue: if you neglect your car, it will break, and it will be a very expensive fix.

Sorry, but circumstances matter a lot in life, and you can't just brush them off because you don't like them. Try telling your insurance company that the circumstances don't matter. Or the hospital. Or the police. Or your boss. Or your customers.

He's not saying that the circumstances are completely irrelevant, he's saying that the specific circumstances don't matter (as long as they add up to neglect), because it takes different circumstances to cause different problems. That's not at all like trying to ignore who's at fault in a traffic collision.

Re: Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

#93

Post by jd »

JS_startup wrote: post #77
jd wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to point out how Tesla car batteries have to follow the laws of physics. Other people did that already. Tesla cars aren't mass market products (yet). They're for early adopters who can afford what is essentially a $100.000+ toy. If you then don't read the manual and leave the car on a parking lot for months , then yes, you can ruin the battery. So let's compare it to other early adopter technology. It t…

>So let's not lose perspective here. If you forget to plug in your roadster before you go on holiday, in the absolute worst case scenario you have to replace the battery. No big deal. Have you read the original blog post? ( http://theunderstatement.com/post/18030062041/its-a-brick-te... ) Battery replacement costs $40k in cash and all of Tesla's documentation only gently "suggests" that the car be plugged in when con…

I read the original post. $40.000 is roughly 1/3rd of the original cost of purchase. So it's completely reasonable. If you can't afford that you have no business buying a first-generation $100.000 toy.

As far as I know Tesla strongly recommends owners buy a charging station for their home and plug in their Roadsters every night.

Re: Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

#94

Post by JS_startup »

jd wrote: post #93
JS_startup wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So let's not lose perspective here. If you forget to plug in your roadster before you go on holiday, in the absolute worst case scenario you have to replace the battery. No big deal. Have you read the original blog post? ( http://theunderstatement.com/post/18030062041/its-a-brick-te... ) Battery replacement costs $40k in cash and all of Tesla's documentation only gently "suggests" that the car be plugged in when con…

I read the original post. $40.000 is roughly 1/3rd of the original cost of purchase. So it's completely reasonable. If you can't afford that you have no business buying a first-generation $100.000 toy. As far as I know Tesla strongly recommends owners buy a charging station for their home and plug in their Roadsters every night.

Then you also know that the Model S that's being aimed at average consumers is rolling out soon with the same shortcoming, negating your expensive toy argument.

Re: Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

#95

Post by bittermang »

wtallis wrote: post #92
sbov wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but circumstances matter a lot in life, and you can't just brush them off because you don't like them. Try telling your insurance company that the circumstances don't matter. Or the hospital. Or the police. Or your boss. Or your customers.

He's not saying that the circumstances are completely irrelevant, he's saying that the specific circumstances don't matter (as long as they add up to neglect), because it takes different circumstances to cause different problems. That's not at all like trying to ignore who's at fault in a traffic collision.

Precisely.

There's a lot of variables at play here. The fact that the battery is so expensive vs. what a consumer has become accustomed to paying for vehicle maintenance on a traditional gasoline car. The tech is new. The way the vehicles operate is fundamentally different, and require different attention to different things. But it's all noise convoluting the argument.

The root: if you neglect your vehicle -- any vehicle -- you are in store for an expensive repair bill. It could be a $2,000 transmission. It could be a $10,000 engine replacement. Or it could be a $40,000 electric car battery. Because of all the aforementioned variables, the largest of which being the cost associated, there has been a massive amount of FUD surrounding bricking your Tesla. This response from the company is attempting to bring things back down to earth. If you plug in your car, you won't brick your car.

Which should really be common sense for anything at this point. Regardless of cost, if you take care of your possessions, they will last longer.

Re: Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

#96

Post by TDL »

ugh wrote: post #83
Arjuna wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mentioned this yesterday [1], but I am repeating it here, because I believe that it is a critical piece of the conversation. The consequences of failing to maintain the battery are clearly stated by Tesla Motors in the owner's manual. Is it the fault of Tesla Motors that an owner did not read, understand and follow the maintenance procedures outlined in the owner's manual? Is it not the buyer's responsibility to pe…

Yes, it is Tesla's fault. Clearly. You shouldn't need to read a manual to drive a car. Tesla has to make sure things behave like people expect them to behave. That's how people are going to see it, anyway. Owning up to it would be a small price to pay for Tesla.

How is neglect of the car owner (assuming the rumors of these owners cars "bricking") the car manufacturers fault? If I buy an electric car I expect to plug it in regularly.

I'll make an assumption here; most people expect to have to plug in an electric car on a regular basis. The expectation is to plug in the car regularly.

Re: Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

#97

Post by fr0sty »

abruzzi wrote: post #72
fr0sty wrote: post #8

I wonder if as much digital ink would have been spilled on this whole kerfluffle if the original article had not used the term 'bricked'. Bricking, at least in my mind, is something that happens suddenly usually when attempting something at least slightly risky. Jailbreaking iPhones, replacing your laptop harddrive, desoldering components in an audio amplifier and other 'warranty voiding' all carry some 'bricking' ri…

It need not be risky or warranty voiding. Bricking has been applied to software updated pushed out by vendors in the past, so I don't think it implies anything more than something that causes something to lose all function and become inert, like a brik.

A vendor software push is risky even if well tested...

> "something that causes something to lose all function and become inert"

add "suddenly and without warning" and I'd agree with that definition.

Re: Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

#98

Post by ghaff »

Arjuna wrote: post #63
blhack wrote: post #36

Here's one of the problems that I have with this whole thing: My iPod goes dead all the time, so does my phone, so does my laptop, my camera, my remote, my everything. I think that every single battery-powered device I've ever owned has, at some point, gone "dead" (as in it won't power on). NONE of these things have ever been completely incapacitated because of this. I've never had to replace my laptop because I let…

I mentioned this yesterday [1], but I am repeating it here, because I believe that it is a critical piece of the conversation. The consequences of failing to maintain the battery are clearly stated by Tesla Motors in the owner's manual. Is it the fault of Tesla Motors that an owner did not read, understand and follow the maintenance procedures outlined in the owner's manual? Is it not the buyer's responsibility to pe…

At least with the 2008 manual I looked through, the warning (which doesn't seem to be as detailed as the more recent one) appears in section 5-2 of the manual. Well past all the dire warnings about using seat belts and how the car may contain chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer. I wouldn't conclude--based solely on this evidence--that everyone would be fully aware of the seriousness of letting the car discharge fully.

Of course, Tesla may emphasize the point in other ways.

That's the general problem with the omnipresent safety warnings you get with products. The important and possibly non-obvious get drowned out by the all the boilerplate silliness.

Re: Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

#99

Post by morrow »

mikeash wrote: post #45

Here's something I'm still unclear on: how strongly were owners warned about this beforehand? If Tesla cars come with a bright red warning on the driver's side window saying IF YOU DO NOT KEEP THIS CAR CHARGED THEN YOU RUN THE RISK OF REPAIRS COSTING UP TO $40,000 then I'd say Tesla is completely in the right here. If they didn't mention this anywhere and it's just something owners discover because they use it in a w…

These (apparent) e-mails between an owner with the dead battery issue and Tesla seem to indicate that there is a a 'built-in notification system' for this, but it wasn't added for the first 500 cars : http://jalopnik.com/5887504/tesla-emails-gallery/gallery/1

Re: Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

#100

Post by bproper »

JS_startup wrote: post #77
jd wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to point out how Tesla car batteries have to follow the laws of physics. Other people did that already. Tesla cars aren't mass market products (yet). They're for early adopters who can afford what is essentially a $100.000+ toy. If you then don't read the manual and leave the car on a parking lot for months , then yes, you can ruin the battery. So let's compare it to other early adopter technology. It t…

>So let's not lose perspective here. If you forget to plug in your roadster before you go on holiday, in the absolute worst case scenario you have to replace the battery. No big deal. Have you read the original blog post? ( http://theunderstatement.com/post/18030062041/its-a-brick-te... ) Battery replacement costs $40k in cash and all of Tesla's documentation only gently "suggests" that the car be plugged in when con…

Did that article provide any proof or detail about these bricked vehicles? It's easy to make claims and scare people, much harder to do real reporting.

It sounds like Tesla has put multiple redundant systems in place to protect the owner from a bricked battery. Warning lights and sounds. An alert to Tesla that triggers them to respond. A sleep mode that preserves the life of the battery for up to a year.

Yes, the car requires a minimum level of effort. Barring that, it provides many chances for the owner to see the problem coming.

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