A developer's view of Vision Pro • Hacker News Board

Re: A developer's view of Vision Pro

#291

Post by ethbr0 » Tue, Jun 13, 2023, 12:42 AM UTC

cvwright wrote: post #285

ethbr0 wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iOS shines when you create something, for while someone has already created software to create. Desktop shines when you create something novel. It's as simple as that -- there are tons of things people have created really polished iOS "happy path" software to create on, but they're not general purpose creators. Specifically because anything general purpose threatens Apple's App Store toll gate, and thus cannot be all…

What are the creative apps on Android that Apple is not allowing to exist on iOS?

Android isn't desktop.

Re: A developer's view of Vision Pro

#292

Post by alwillis » Tue, Jun 13, 2023, 12:42 AM UTC

MBCook wrote: post #117

bagels wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, it sends the message that the developer is better served by using a Mac, or that the Vision Pro is not capable. Maybe that was honest/intentional?

It’s got a full M2 and (reportedly) 16 GB of RAM. In theory it’s capable. That doesn’t mean Apple will expose that. Maybe just not today. The original iPhone had a full OS capable of multitasking but it wasn’t a feature given to the user due to memory and battery constraints. We’ve now had it for years. This was the first we’ve seen of it, and I suspect the on device development story was not one they wanted to spend…

> Time will tell. The iPad can do development. Apple has proven it with Swift Playgrounds. But they still haven’t given us Xcode. So who knows.

Apple announced just before WWDC the iPadOS versions of Final Cut Pro and Logic Pro, their professional media creation tools. We've all seen shows and listed to music (and podcasts) created with these tools. While most of the core functionality is the same between the Mac and iPadOS versions, the iPad versions take advantage of multitouch and other iPadOS features, as they should.

> Plus knowing Apple it seems likely they’d want to make Xcode work better for the interface than just plopping the Mac app in.

Yes; that's how Apple does things.

As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, iPad users can already use Swift Playgrounds to code and submit an app to the App Store [1].

It's just a matter of time before there will be a version of Xcode for the iPad.

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36303426

Re: A developer's view of Vision Pro

#293

Post by machdiamonds » Tue, Jun 13, 2023, 12:46 AM UTC

pilsetnieks wrote: post #137

iknowstuff wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Resolution aside most headsets kinda feel like wearing a scuba mask because of a narrow field of view. How was the vision pro? I assume this should be public info since it was shown to the press and devs.

Gruber claims that it has the exact same FOV as actual human vision, and no discernible pixels. https://daringfireball.net/2023/06/first_impressions_of_visi...

Norm from Tested, a highly credible source for VR, actually mentions the FOV is akin to Valve Index's: https://youtu.be/f0HBzePUmZ0?t=825

This is actually a bit disappointing since I would rather not have to move my entire head to look at a virtual side monitor. It seems like the technology is there now and many companies are looking into it, hopefully other headsets will be released with higher FOVs: https://youtu.be/y054OEP3qck?t=283

Another noteworthy point from that video: Apple has bought Limbak, an optics specialist that was formerly tied with Lynx R1's optics. This means Lynx can no longer use Limbak's future optics that, admittedly, fall short in scaling to higher resolutions. Now, Lynx has shifted its gaze to hypervision optics, intent on preventing a similar acquisition by another tech behemoth like Apple.

Re: A developer's view of Vision Pro

#294

Post by MBCook » Tue, Jun 13, 2023, 1:01 AM UTC

musictubes wrote: post #219

MBCook wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn’t necessarily mean reprojection but whatever ‘trick’ is done to hide that the cameras aren’t in the same physical location the users eyes are without the headset on. Either way, very fair.

Right, parallax will be more noticeable the closer you move your hand to your face.

That’s the word. Thanks.

Re: A developer's view of Vision Pro

#295

Post by MBCook » Tue, Jun 13, 2023, 1:05 AM UTC

greedo wrote: post #146

MBCook wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t forget the iPhone wasn’t an instant hit. It got a lot of discussion but it took a few years/versions before it became THE phone. Same with the Apple Watch. And even the iPod didn’t take off until it was on Windows after a few years. This will likely be similar. When the iPhone came out, not only was it limited it was $600 and no subsidy at a time most people were getting free camera phones. It took a while (and…

I don't expect the Vision devices to really drop much in price in the coming years. To lower costs, they'll have to go with lower quality displays, or cheaper cameras/sensors and less battery life. If you look at the iPhone, it hasn't gone down in price much if at all. I think we're at least 5 years away in terms of tech capability to provide the level of experience Apple is looking for at an "SE iPhone" type price p…

Some will come from mass production lowering costs for components. Some from the components being less cutting edge (and thus cheaper) too.

But I agree it’s not getting cheap soon. Maybe to $2k for the non-pro version (similar to the announcement Vision Pro) in a few years. Maybe even $1500.

You want to pay $500? You’re going to wait a long time.

Re: A developer's view of Vision Pro

#296

Post by machdiamonds » Tue, Jun 13, 2023, 1:19 AM UTC

ladberg wrote: post #20

> In short, my brain has crossed a Rubicon and now feels like experiences constrained to small, rectangular screens are lesser experiences. I left Apple 1.5 years ago but was working on the Vision Pro while I was there. I have spend many hours working in the headset and I know exactly the feeling he's describing! Leaving felt like going back in time to using clunky technology and I've been waiting for outside world t…

Hi, curious about the foveated rendering on this headset. Theoretically, it should offer a 10x+ performance boost, but headsets like Quest Pro and PSVR haven’t achieved much with it. How does this compare?

Re: A developer's view of Vision Pro

#297

Post by freedomben » Tue, Jun 13, 2023, 1:20 AM UTC

abracadaniel wrote: post #212

ladberg wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've used other VR headsets and it's significantly better than everything I've tried. You'll be able to put up virtual monitors at the same density as real life and read stuff fine, I couldn't really discern pixels at all. Reading physical monitors through passthrough is a bit harder (I increased text size a few points when I needed to do this) but isn't really something you'd do for actual work.

Is is comfortable for all day work like that? Virtual monitors seems like the critical app for me.

Have you tried the XReal glasses? virtual monitors are my biggest use case too and I'm close to making the plunge on XReal, but would love to hear from people who have tried them.

Re: A developer's view of Vision Pro

#298

Post by skygazer » Tue, Jun 13, 2023, 1:47 AM UTC

pilsetnieks wrote: post #137

iknowstuff wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Resolution aside most headsets kinda feel like wearing a scuba mask because of a narrow field of view. How was the vision pro? I assume this should be public info since it was shown to the press and devs.

Gruber claims that it has the exact same FOV as actual human vision, and no discernible pixels. https://daringfireball.net/2023/06/first_impressions_of_visi...

I just read Gruber's review. When he says "field of view" he's not talking about total degrees of arc, he's talking about what one might think of as "zoom," in this instance. He says things don't appear larger or smaller when you remove the headset.

Re: A developer's view of Vision Pro

#299

Post by TillE » Tue, Jun 13, 2023, 2:04 AM UTC

MBCook wrote: post #295

greedo wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't expect the Vision devices to really drop much in price in the coming years. To lower costs, they'll have to go with lower quality displays, or cheaper cameras/sensors and less battery life. If you look at the iPhone, it hasn't gone down in price much if at all. I think we're at least 5 years away in terms of tech capability to provide the level of experience Apple is looking for at an "SE iPhone" type price p…

Some will come from mass production lowering costs for components. Some from the components being less cutting edge (and thus cheaper) too. But I agree it’s not getting cheap soon. Maybe to $2k for the non-pro version (similar to the announcement Vision Pro) in a few years. Maybe even $1500. You want to pay $500? You’re going to wait a long time.

When Apple releases one of these for $1999, that's the point where they'll be taking the general consumer market seriously. The price of a MacBook Pro.

I think you could get there pretty quickly by cutting out all the AR stuff and making a VR-only "spatial computing" device, but I dunno if that's something they want to do.

Re: A developer's view of Vision Pro

#300

Post by programmarchy » Tue, Jun 13, 2023, 2:04 AM UTC

ladberg wrote: post #62

highwaylights wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t want to be nosey but given that it sounds like you feel like it’s a paradigm shifting device, and you’ve actually worked on and with the device, I’d be interested to read about your motivations for moving on from Apple/the project when you did if you ever feel like writing about it. So many questions I’d love to ask you about this, but again, none of my business. Just wanted to let you know I’d upvote that bl…

Thanks! My motivations were mostly comp based (I'm in HFT now), I loved the product and the team I was on! Feel free to ask any questions here and I'll answer anything I can (e.g. no unreleased info, but maybe go into more detail about the kind of stuff that was shown to devs at WWDC). No blog right now but maybe in the future :)

What’s the best way to develop for Vision Pro until the headset is available to buy? Use ARKit/RealityKit/Unity in an iPhone to develop some of the basics and hope the code translates well enough?