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Ted Kaczynski has died

nytimes.com

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Re: Ted Kaczynski has died

#801

Post by emodendroket »

armitron wrote: post #797
lanstin wrote: post #777

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fascinating how good writing and surface intelligence can make absolutely insane ideas seem sensible. Deductive reasoning is, unfortunately, not absolutely reliable for people who have pattern loving brains and good enough memory to make long chains of deductions; evaluating the entire chain as a gestalt and with an eye towards the great amount of data we lack, about the present and past and true material causes, is…

Can you point at something in his manifesto that you'd classify as an "absolutely insane idea" ? I have the vague impression that people either don't engage at all with TK philosophy -but are happy to pass verdict nonetheless- or if they do, simply can't handle the cognitive dissonance that arises and immediately reach for quick relief ("madman", "insane ideas", "MKUltra" etc) Few if any called Ellul a madman or char…

> Few if any called Ellul a madman or characterized his ides as absolutely insane, but as far as I know he didn't kill anyone.

Yeah, probably some sort of causal relationship there.

Re: Ted Kaczynski has died

#802

Post by goblin89 »

dbspin wrote: post #314
cscurmudgeon wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of those happen in non-capitalist societies too and some times to a more larger extent.

Both of us seem to agree that there is such a thing called capitalism.

One can say “non-capitalist society” yet mean that capitalism is the only thing that there ever is. Capitalism is a way to look at things, and it doesn’t require a modern society—social capital and economics of prestige is a thing since forever[0].

Indeed, in all large-scale supposed “non-capitalist” societies today there is capital—it doesn’t stop being so if a few people use unlimited power and oppression to install arbitrary rules and restrictions on capital for others without having being subject to any checks or balances themselves; it just becomes more contrived and perhaps perverted.

Some would probably say that it’s the infectious external influence of other capitalist countries that precludes full abolition of capital, but another way to look at it is that said external influence is in fact what gives such a regime life in the first place—i.e., if you remove the agitating antagonistic existence of “capitalism”, the pretend “non-capitalism capitalism” would not suddenly turn into a perfectly “non-capitalism non-capitalism” but rather revert to capitalism, regardless of whether it would be called so or not or whether it would happen violently or peacefully.

[0] https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2016/03/03/inequalities/

Re: Ted Kaczynski has died

#803

Post by emodendroket »

goldenkey wrote: post #796
bbor wrote: post #736

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with this characterization. It’s not that reading Mein Kampf would brainwash you, it’s that reading it for it’s “nuggets of wisdom” is an insane, dangerous thing to do. I sorta thought that part would be uncontroversial but who knows

Human beings are not one dimensional. I see nothing wrong with taking military wisdom from Hitler.

Considering his lack of success and the fact that he had better military thinkers as subordinates, looking for "military wisdom" from Hitler sounds like the kind of thing you'd do because you had an ulterior motive.

Re: Ted Kaczynski has died

#804

Post by wahnfrieden »

lostmsu wrote: post #800
wahnfrieden wrote: post #795

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not what I said, but - goodbye

The article is no better. It says there was free movement between tribes and over large distances, but there's no real proof of the first one, and the last one is only mentioned for large communities, not for individuals.

the book provides refs

Re: Ted Kaczynski has died

#805

Post by bbor »

goldenkey wrote: post #796
bbor wrote: post #736

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with this characterization. It’s not that reading Mein Kampf would brainwash you, it’s that reading it for it’s “nuggets of wisdom” is an insane, dangerous thing to do. I sorta thought that part would be uncontroversial but who knows

Human beings are not one dimensional. I see nothing wrong with taking military wisdom from Hitler.

Lol very unexpected response. Why do you need military wisdom?

Re: Ted Kaczynski has died

#806

Post by fairity »

armitron wrote: post #799
fairity wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO, the alternatives are all based on a reframing of mindset versus a change in external environment. My understanding is that most of Kacynski’s disillusionment was born out of: - a recognition of how artificial most people’s values and goals are - an inability to find authentic & fulfilling values and goals - an innate urge to be useful and important Put another way, Kacynski didn’t want to be like the brainwashed…

"the alternatives are all based on a reframing of mindset versus a change in external environment." In other words, being forced (or reengineered as Kaczynski writes) to take it. Not exactly an alternative now is it? Imagine telling the victims of the Holocaust, on their way to the crematoria, that they should accept the absurdity of life and release their ego, learn to not take things so seriously. Kaczynski's essen…

Whether it's appropriate to "force someone to take it" depends on the degree of pain being caused.

There's some threshold of pain over which it's reasonable to consider major restructuring of society, and it could be useful to have a discussion on where that threshold is, but the fact that you're comparing your current state to being in a Nazi labor camp doesn't make me think that's a good use of my time.

The disillusionment & accompanied emotional pain described by Kacynski simply doesn't pass the bar for me, especially when a bit of meditation and dedication to your mental health will bring happiness.

Re: Ted Kaczynski has died

#807

Post by op00to »

retrocryptid wrote: post #588
op00to wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude. There is a difference between a bomb that has significant ability to kill and destroy and sample code.

I'm guessing you've never written code for nuclear device, then.

/sample/ code for a nuclear device? no. not sample code.

Re: Ted Kaczynski has died

#808

Post by msla »

ly3xqhl8g9 wrote: post #613
msla wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If there are thinkers who have been in the conceptual space of the 23rd century and beyond, Simondon was surely one. The 23rd Century shouldn't belong to ecofascists.

None of those mentioned are ecofascists, especially not Simondon [1], that was the point: the true radicals destroy the future worlds, not directly the present one. Alan Turing destroyed all the multiverse branches [2] in which we don't use computation. Norman Borlaug [3] destroyed all the multiverse branches in which we don't have high-yield wheat. Perhaps an even better parallel would have been Alexander Grothendie…

You're throwing out a lot of names to defend a White Supremacist Fascist named Ted Kaczynski.

Re: Ted Kaczynski has died

#809

Post by msla »

spurgu wrote: post #474
basisword wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for posting. Far too much support and excusing of a deranged murderer in these comments.

The positive comments are mostly in response to his view/ideas/philosophy, as in Industrial Society and Its Future and his subsequent books - I don't think there's a single person here condoning the bombings. If you were to read his works you might find that he wasn't so deranged after all, quite the opposite. Edit: In terms of the philosophy/view I mean. The bombings were made out of bitterness and anger and are ine…

His views were White Supremacy and Fascism.

Re: Ted Kaczynski has died

#810

Post by anigbrowl »

krapp wrote: post #171
anigbrowl wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's overly reductive. Kaczynski's political views continued to evolve while in prison; his later writings are notably different in tone.

Industrial Society and its Future is the only work anyone ever mentions, especially where Kaczynsci's anti-leftist politics are concerned.

That's unfortunate because he expanded on ISAIF at length in his prison writing and took a more thoughtful and look at a lot of existing political tropes. For example, in his Anti-Tech Revolution* he lauds the tactics of early feminists' campaigns to obtain voting rights for women, and similarly deconstructs a lot of flaws in right wing ideology.

I disagree with a lot of Kaczynski's ideas and methods, but I still regard him as an important thinker and wish people would read his output in full rather than rushing to have the hottest take (not meant as a dig at you, rather the avalanche of attempted zingers on Twitter and in the media over the weekend).

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