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Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

nytimes.com

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Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#91

Post by red-iron-pine »

intellectronica wrote: post #40
casenmgreen wrote: post #19

It's a terrible thing to say this of a man, or someone who has died, but thank God. I mean, it might well by the end he was been pretty aged in his mind and was being used or fooled or had lost the plot : his comments about Ukraine were staggering, appalling aberrations you never want to hear from someone with considerable public stature in any country.

To his credit it has to be said that he saved the Italian tax payer a lot of money on funeral costs by undergoing embalmment at his own expense while still alive.

Nah he's still gonna find a way to bilk the state even in death

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#93

Post by red-iron-pine »

seydor wrote: post #71
martopix wrote: post #5

For those who did not grow up like me in Berlusconi's Italy, he was an interesting character and in many ways a precursor of today's politics. When Trump came to rise, I felt many aspects were similar: both very rich entrepreneurs, arrogant personalities, a tendency to go against well established rules, personal attacks on opponents, an admiration for strongmen (Berlusconi had a clear crush on Putin), tax creativity,…

I think these are directly related to their age bracket and the demographics which they were representing. Italy just happened to be a lot more aged than america. We should be talking about the demographic page-turning that will happen in this decade

Been happening a lot longer than a decade. One of the reasons for the GOP's aggressive actions in things like redistricting ("gerrymandering") has been in an attempt to hold back the coming demographic crash.

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#94

Post by red-iron-pine »

hunglee2 wrote: post #4

Trump before Trump - Silivio Berlusconi was maybe the first of the modern populists - a political outsider who used celebrity status and media influence to enter the halls of power, and then proceeded to denigrate the establishment at every opportunity. It's a serious matter that this type of personality finds political favour amongst the people, and that our current systems of governance allow for unserious characte…

I could, no joke, see Jake Paul taking a run at it.

Tucker C is too compromised from his emails getting leaked and already has the reputation of being a spineless mouthpiece. He'll need more than (foreign) money to run the cursus honorum enough to get legitimacy, i.e. what happened to Sarah Palin.

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#96

Post by cente »

casenmgreen wrote: post #19

It's a terrible thing to say this of a man, or someone who has died, but thank God. I mean, it might well by the end he was been pretty aged in his mind and was being used or fooled or had lost the plot : his comments about Ukraine were staggering, appalling aberrations you never want to hear from someone with considerable public stature in any country.

It's not terrible thing to say, he was a horrible person, only God knows how much damage he has done to our country and for how many years we will have to deal with them.

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#97

Post by red-iron-pine »

gpderetta wrote: post #80
pjc50 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguably that's the Trump version (although he was a gameshow host rather than a comedian).

Trump followed the rich tycoon playbook of Berlusconi, I think. He also did work within the framework of existing politics. Grillo wasn't particularly rich and bootstrapped a new party through his internet reach. Although it is possible that Casaleggio was the real mastermind behind it.

> He also did work within the framework of existing politics.

I mean sorta? He didn't have any particular allegiance to one or the other, and famously ran as a Democrat before. He clearly has nothing but distain for either party and is mostly there out of his own ego, or because foreign intelligence was goading him (one way or the other) to.

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#98

Post by darkr »

NoRelToEmber wrote: post #65
pjc50 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is an odd consequence of the free speech and contempt of court laws in both countries that we can see inside the US president's house and look at the pile of illegal documents, while, sitting here in Scotland, the charges against Sturgeon remain extremely vague and it's basically illegal to discuss whether there is any substance to them.

> it's basically illegal to discuss whether there is any substance to them. Could you elaborate?

UK contempt of court laws prohibit "publications" from influencing any future trial (publications taken to mean any communication addressed to the public - including twitter etc).

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#99

Post by peoplefromibiza »

gpderetta wrote: post #49
peoplefromibiza wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in which there were no good choices to vote for: either corrupt Berlusconi or Communists (who were also corrupt). That's a pretty bad description of the situation in Italy. First of all we (I am from Italy, I voted in 1994 when Berlusconi bootstrapped his political career) have a large number of parties. In 1994 there were at least 20 symbols grouped in 2 main coalitions. Secondly, the communist were already a thin…

Incidentally, many Socialist refugees that managed not to get jailed during the Mani Pulite purges, ended up in Berlusconi's party. Incidentally Incidentally, Berlusconi was really a man of equal opportunities: he didn't really care about your beliefs, political background, gender or sexual orientation, as long as you could help him get more power, money, or at least keep him out of jail.

> Incidentally, many Socialist refugees that managed not to get jailed during the Mani Pulite purges,

It wasn't really a purge, anyway not so many, just those that were on the Bettino Craxi's side, who was close friend with Berlusconi, who was best man in the second Berlusconi's marriage, a man who's considered the one who ruined the Italian Socialist Party beyond recover.

Proof is the two Craxi's sons: Stefania ended up with the center-right coalition, Bobo with the center left and he's still member of the PSI (Italian Socialist Party)

> Berlusconi was really a man of equal opportunities

That's a bit romantic.

He had a lot of help from corrupted politicians and organized crime.

He simply escaped justice for enough time to make the narrative of the political victim stick.

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#100

Post by throw310822 »

pjc50 wrote: post #76
throw310822 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He had been prescribed some major surgery, but got a second opinion and found out it wasn't necessary and/ or it had been prescribed in error. He was sharing his experience and providing some sort of general advice.

And why was this a scandal? It's not very googleable (partly because the news of him dying is all over the search results)

Politicians from the left criticised him for giving an advice ("get an opinion from a second doctor") that they deemed a privilege unaffordable for poor people.
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