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Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

nytimes.com

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Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#51

Post by pjc50 »

paganel wrote: post #25
datadeft wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't politicians with ties to the mafia quite common?

Like the recent Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon getting arrested a couple of days ago (and released, for the time being).

It is an odd consequence of the free speech and contempt of court laws in both countries that we can see inside the US president's house and look at the pile of illegal documents, while, sitting here in Scotland, the charges against Sturgeon remain extremely vague and it's basically illegal to discuss whether there is any substance to them.

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#52

Post by brandall10 »

liotier wrote: post #18
jll29 wrote: post #8

Berlusconi was said to have had ties to organized crime, going back to his time as a real estate lawyer. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/04/silvio-berlusc...

Anywhere in the world, I doubt any real estate business functions with no contact with criminal organizations and local politics - too much money depends on regulations and their executive applications or lack thereof. In early 90's Italy ? Is that even a question ?

Yeah... this was well illustrated in The Wire.

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#53

Post by veave »

casenmgreen wrote: post #19

It's a terrible thing to say this of a man, or someone who has died, but thank God. I mean, it might well by the end he was been pretty aged in his mind and was being used or fooled or had lost the plot : his comments about Ukraine were staggering, appalling aberrations you never want to hear from someone with considerable public stature in any country.

[flagged]

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#54

Post by ur-whale »

imiric wrote: post #42
mschuster91 wrote: post #10

One of the very few people whom it's not worth shedding tears over. The sheer destruction Berlusconi brought upon his country and democracy at large is unimaginable. Berlusconi was the pioneer of modern populism, of all of it. Corruption, embezzlement, buying up or otherwise controlling media for manipulating or influencing coverage, being involved in so many scandals that it became completely impossible to track the…

There's something to be said about modern political and legal systems that these rotten to the core people can gain and maintain power for so many years, in spite of the obvious wrongdoings on every level. What is the problem here? The law being complicit? Extremely effective charisma and propaganda? Politics is full of these characters, and it seems that the more awful they are, the higher up the ranks they go. It's…

> What is the problem here?

The answer is quite simple: as rotten as the likes of Berlusconi and Trump may be, the folks on the opposite side (e.g. Hillary) are simply just as rotten and despicable.

As a voter you are then left with a choice of rotten or rotten ... their despicability sort of cancels out, and your choice then hinges on their secondary characteristics such as : are they right or left leaning.

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#55

Post by pjc50 »

throw310822 wrote: post #39
martopix wrote: post #5

For those who did not grow up like me in Berlusconi's Italy, he was an interesting character and in many ways a precursor of today's politics. When Trump came to rise, I felt many aspects were similar: both very rich entrepreneurs, arrogant personalities, a tendency to go against well established rules, personal attacks on opponents, an admiration for strongmen (Berlusconi had a clear crush on Putin), tax creativity,…

> When Trump came to rise, I felt many aspects were similar: both very rich entrepreneurs, arrogant personalities .... And you forgot the knee-jerk reactions from the left, which reduced itself to a role of a spectator with the index finger raised and perpetually shouting "no, you can't do that"- applied to just anything he said or did [1]. I have seen the same with Trump. Some part of the population (including me) c…

People would rather be in complicity with bad behavior than admit the left has a point.

> once he dared to say "it would be better to consult a second doctor before undergoing a risky or debilitating surgical procedure"

Do you suppose you could supply the context for this? I mean, I can guess, it's obvious, but I think it also matters for the discussion?

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#56

Post by gpderetta »

imiric wrote: post #42
mschuster91 wrote: post #10

One of the very few people whom it's not worth shedding tears over. The sheer destruction Berlusconi brought upon his country and democracy at large is unimaginable. Berlusconi was the pioneer of modern populism, of all of it. Corruption, embezzlement, buying up or otherwise controlling media for manipulating or influencing coverage, being involved in so many scandals that it became completely impossible to track the…

There's something to be said about modern political and legal systems that these rotten to the core people can gain and maintain power for so many years, in spite of the obvious wrongdoings on every level. What is the problem here? The law being complicit? Extremely effective charisma and propaganda? Politics is full of these characters, and it seems that the more awful they are, the higher up the ranks they go. It's…

> What is the problem here? The law being complicit? Extremely effective charisma and propaganda?

Being in charge of making the law helps, but charisma and propaganda gets you in that position in the first place.

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#57

Post by dfvnbggfg »

mschuster91 wrote: post #10

One of the very few people whom it's not worth shedding tears over. The sheer destruction Berlusconi brought upon his country and democracy at large is unimaginable. Berlusconi was the pioneer of modern populism, of all of it. Corruption, embezzlement, buying up or otherwise controlling media for manipulating or influencing coverage, being involved in so many scandals that it became completely impossible to track the…

[flagged]

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#58

Post by subhumanssuck »

braymundo wrote: post #22
casenmgreen wrote: post #19

It's a terrible thing to say this of a man, or someone who has died, but thank God. I mean, it might well by the end he was been pretty aged in his mind and was being used or fooled or had lost the plot : his comments about Ukraine were staggering, appalling aberrations you never want to hear from someone with considerable public stature in any country.

I don’t feel bad at all. He should be judged by his words and actions. I’ll celebrate shamelessly when putin dies.

[dead]

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#59

Post by amrocha »

veave wrote: post #53
casenmgreen wrote: post #19

It's a terrible thing to say this of a man, or someone who has died, but thank God. I mean, it might well by the end he was been pretty aged in his mind and was being used or fooled or had lost the plot : his comments about Ukraine were staggering, appalling aberrations you never want to hear from someone with considerable public stature in any country.

[flagged]

He was a prime minister. He owned the most successful soccer team in Italy. He owns several Italian TV channels.

This isn't a dude over there with bad opinions. This is someone powerful who used their power to make the lives of a lot of people worse.

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#60

Post by Ekaros »

richardfey wrote: post #13
mschuster91 wrote: post #10

One of the very few people whom it's not worth shedding tears over. The sheer destruction Berlusconi brought upon his country and democracy at large is unimaginable. Berlusconi was the pioneer of modern populism, of all of it. Corruption, embezzlement, buying up or otherwise controlling media for manipulating or influencing coverage, being involved in so many scandals that it became completely impossible to track the…

You forgot buying judges and (financial) police officers

How can you ever trust judicial system when even the top people got their position from the rotten people... Why would any of them bite the hand that got them their position and possibly in future a higher position. Everyone is corrupted and rotten.
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