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Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

nytimes.com

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Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#41

Post by peoplefromibiza »

camillomiller wrote: post #27
jll29 wrote: post #8

Berlusconi was said to have had ties to organized crime, going back to his time as a real estate lawyer. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/04/silvio-berlusc...

As a staunch Italian hater of anything Berlusconi, we still have to agree that he was never found guilty of those charges, though--it doesn't mean he was involved, but the judiciary system in Italy had also its own agenda and an obsession with indicting Berlusconi that, tbh, backfired against the court system in a big way.

that's not what happened.

most of them ended because the limitation period expired, thanks to his lawyers being elected in Parliament to fix his trials.

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#42

Post by imiric »

mschuster91 wrote: post #10

One of the very few people whom it's not worth shedding tears over. The sheer destruction Berlusconi brought upon his country and democracy at large is unimaginable. Berlusconi was the pioneer of modern populism, of all of it. Corruption, embezzlement, buying up or otherwise controlling media for manipulating or influencing coverage, being involved in so many scandals that it became completely impossible to track the…

There's something to be said about modern political and legal systems that these rotten to the core people can gain and maintain power for so many years, in spite of the obvious wrongdoings on every level.

What is the problem here? The law being complicit? Extremely effective charisma and propaganda?

Politics is full of these characters, and it seems that the more awful they are, the higher up the ranks they go. It's like humans are conditioned to celebrate the worst in people, and the pessimistic concern that this will never change is quite powerful.

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#43

Post by thefz »

peterfirefly wrote: post #16
martopix wrote: post #5

For those who did not grow up like me in Berlusconi's Italy, he was an interesting character and in many ways a precursor of today's politics. When Trump came to rise, I felt many aspects were similar: both very rich entrepreneurs, arrogant personalities, a tendency to go against well established rules, personal attacks on opponents, an admiration for strongmen (Berlusconi had a clear crush on Putin), tax creativity,…

What many people outside of Italy don't understand is how crazy the left side of politics in Italy was (and still is). Italy had a looong period (that arguably hasn't ended yet) in which there were no good choices to vote for: either corrupt Berlusconi or Communists (who were also corrupt). Meloni has so far been a pleasant surprise. I didn't have any positive expectations when she became PM but she seems to be doing…

> Meloni has so far been a pleasant surprise.

This government like any other has failed to address the big themes and is concentrating on stupid, more media-friendly stuff. Zero addressing themes of tax evasion, public health, public school, work reform... the list goes on.

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#44

Post by thefz »

cinntaile wrote: post #12
jll29 wrote: post #8

Berlusconi was said to have had ties to organized crime, going back to his time as a real estate lawyer. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/04/silvio-berlusc...

Aren't politicians with ties to the mafia quite common in Italy?

No. They are not.

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#45

Post by hbbio »

flir wrote: post #29
paganel wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like the recent Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon getting arrested a couple of days ago (and released, for the time being).

Mafia? Sturgeon? Are you serious?

Amounts for Sturgeon are indeed so low.

For 100s of millions, I'd rather look at us politicians ("Democrats") that trade stock and receive large paychecks from corporations... In exchange of what exactly?

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#46

Post by throwaway729993 »

martopix wrote: post #5

For those who did not grow up like me in Berlusconi's Italy, he was an interesting character and in many ways a precursor of today's politics. When Trump came to rise, I felt many aspects were similar: both very rich entrepreneurs, arrogant personalities, a tendency to go against well established rules, personal attacks on opponents, an admiration for strongmen (Berlusconi had a clear crush on Putin), tax creativity,…

Another huge similarity with Trump was Berlusconi's theatrics. He would often make boisterous, ridiculous statements in order to attract outrage. Very effective at distracting people from his actions.

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#47

Post by bombolo »

peterfirefly wrote: post #16
martopix wrote: post #5

For those who did not grow up like me in Berlusconi's Italy, he was an interesting character and in many ways a precursor of today's politics. When Trump came to rise, I felt many aspects were similar: both very rich entrepreneurs, arrogant personalities, a tendency to go against well established rules, personal attacks on opponents, an admiration for strongmen (Berlusconi had a clear crush on Putin), tax creativity,…

What many people outside of Italy don't understand is how crazy the left side of politics in Italy was (and still is). Italy had a looong period (that arguably hasn't ended yet) in which there were no good choices to vote for: either corrupt Berlusconi or Communists (who were also corrupt). Meloni has so far been a pleasant surprise. I didn't have any positive expectations when she became PM but she seems to be doing…

A pleasant surprise? A government that says "we do whatever USA tells us to do, against our own interest" is good? If you're from USA I guess…

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#48

Post by bombolo »

gsatic wrote: post #31
peterfirefly wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What many people outside of Italy don't understand is how crazy the left side of politics in Italy was (and still is). Italy had a looong period (that arguably hasn't ended yet) in which there were no good choices to vote for: either corrupt Berlusconi or Communists (who were also corrupt). Meloni has so far been a pleasant surprise. I didn't have any positive expectations when she became PM but she seems to be doing…

Thinking about it...the left doesn't seem to have entrepreneurs in political leadership positions. Can't think of anyone World over.

Because entrepreneurs make laws against workers, which is a right wing thing.

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#49

Post by gpderetta »

peoplefromibiza wrote: post #33
peterfirefly wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What many people outside of Italy don't understand is how crazy the left side of politics in Italy was (and still is). Italy had a looong period (that arguably hasn't ended yet) in which there were no good choices to vote for: either corrupt Berlusconi or Communists (who were also corrupt). Meloni has so far been a pleasant surprise. I didn't have any positive expectations when she became PM but she seems to be doing…

> in which there were no good choices to vote for: either corrupt Berlusconi or Communists (who were also corrupt). That's a pretty bad description of the situation in Italy. First of all we (I am from Italy, I voted in 1994 when Berlusconi bootstrapped his political career) have a large number of parties. In 1994 there were at least 20 symbols grouped in 2 main coalitions. Secondly, the communist were already a thin…

Incidentally, many Socialist refugees that managed not to get jailed during the Mani Pulite purges, ended up in Berlusconi's party. Incidentally Incidentally, Berlusconi was really a man of equal opportunities: he didn't really care about your beliefs, political background, gender or sexual orientation, as long as you could help him get more power, money, or at least keep him out of jail.

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#50

Post by atq2119 »

throw310822 wrote: post #39
martopix wrote: post #5

For those who did not grow up like me in Berlusconi's Italy, he was an interesting character and in many ways a precursor of today's politics. When Trump came to rise, I felt many aspects were similar: both very rich entrepreneurs, arrogant personalities, a tendency to go against well established rules, personal attacks on opponents, an admiration for strongmen (Berlusconi had a clear crush on Putin), tax creativity,…

> When Trump came to rise, I felt many aspects were similar: both very rich entrepreneurs, arrogant personalities .... And you forgot the knee-jerk reactions from the left, which reduced itself to a role of a spectator with the index finger raised and perpetually shouting "no, you can't do that"- applied to just anything he said or did [1]. I have seen the same with Trump. Some part of the population (including me) c…

> And you forgot the knee-jerk reactions from the left, [...] Some part of the population (including me) can't really stand the perpetually scandalised, self-appointed guardians of good manners,

This had me nodding along.

> and will become disgusted by both sides equally.

This is the part that makes you, or perhaps just that part of you, a bad person.

You are equating somebody who actually abused power and brought the world closer to an authoritarian strongman dystopia to people who, by your own description, are mostly ineffective and don't actually do anything.

(I can sometimes feel a knee jerk reaction that feels a bit like what you're describing, but I would never be proud of it, and I think it's important to be clear on that point.)

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