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Mercedes beats Tesla to autonomous driving in California

theregister.com

731–740 of 778 posts

Re: Mercedes beats Tesla to autonomous driving in California

#731

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter if you use half as much energy per capita if the thing you created results in 50x more people. When I say destroy the cities I mean to include the populations in them. Through policy you make their lives so miserable that they are not replaced generationally. A similar thing was done to rural areas, their people were systematically destroyed through policy. Most of the people on HN seem to be city-d…

> When I say destroy the cities I mean to include the populations in them Pol pot? Is that you? > It seems to be jarring for them to see their own policies of openly promoting the destruction of others lives Says someone who just proposed mass extermination of billions of people?

"Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead."

a.k.a. please don't feed the trolls

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Mercedes beats Tesla to autonomous driving in California

#732

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry cities are much more efficient than any other form of human living [0]. It is suburbs and rural sprawl that creates the energy waste. Population drift towards the latter may cause the hollowing of cities which lead to crime and transport inefficiency. [0] https://theconversation.com/suburban-living-the-worst-for-ca...

It doesn't matter if you use half as much energy per capita if the thing you created results in 50x more people. When I say destroy the cities I mean to include the populations in them. Through policy you make their lives so miserable that they are not replaced generationally. A similar thing was done to rural areas, their people were systematically destroyed through policy. Most of the people on HN seem to be city-d…

I don't know what battle you're trying to fight but HN is not the place for it. The flamebait you repeatedly posted in this thread was beyond the pale. If you keep posting this sort of comment, we'll end up having to ban you. We've had to warn you about this kind of thing many times before:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27030092 (May 2021)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27030081 (May 2021)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25573631 (Dec 2020)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24145979 (Aug 2020)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17274402 (June 2018)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16938001 (April 2018)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16737173 (April 2018)

If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.

Re: Mercedes beats Tesla to autonomous driving in California

#733

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, that's the elephant in the room. Self driving cars by virtue of being self driving can be sent on trips by themselves without requiring the driver to be present. The presence of a driver is a limiting factor, once that one drops away there will be many more trips. Suddenly kids can use the car and all kinds of pick up and delivery jobs become cost effective in a way that they are not today.

Ah yes! Would love to know how the crowd that protests better public transit, pedestrian paths and bike lanes as “taking away space from cars” will respond to roads being further clogged with… empty cars? We’re really going to spend billions and billions on further car infrastructure, more reduction in space-constrained cities towards pedestrian and bike infrastructure, and even the displacement of existing homes and…

> roads being further clogged with… empty cars

Presumably the car is going to pick someone up. That means it isn't parked being useless. If this starts working at scale, supply and demand will pull ridesharing costs down in a way that reduces ownership.

Re: Mercedes beats Tesla to autonomous driving in California

#734

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, that's the elephant in the room. Self driving cars by virtue of being self driving can be sent on trips by themselves without requiring the driver to be present. The presence of a driver is a limiting factor, once that one drops away there will be many more trips. Suddenly kids can use the car and all kinds of pick up and delivery jobs become cost effective in a way that they are not today.

Ah yes! Would love to know how the crowd that protests better public transit, pedestrian paths and bike lanes as “taking away space from cars” will respond to roads being further clogged with… empty cars? We’re really going to spend billions and billions on further car infrastructure, more reduction in space-constrained cities towards pedestrian and bike infrastructure, and even the displacement of existing homes and…

The problem everybody is ignoring with self-driving cars is that roads already are too expensive to maintain. Self driving cars will require tighter upkeep because they have lower margins for error, ballooning already ludicrous budgets to maintain the six million mile roadway network. Humans can drive drunk on wet gravel in the dark, but a computer needs full GPS, lidar, radar, and motion sensing cameras just to follow well painted paved roads. When there is no downtime and roads are constantly being used they will wear down faster and the computers will cause more crashes. Drains and manholes sink, paint fades, shoulders crumble, curbs deform, and bridges crack. Accelerate this by three, maybe four times and the entire nation will go bankrupt within a decade trying to pay to keep everything running just so autonomous cars can stay the default.

Re: Mercedes beats Tesla to autonomous driving in California

#735

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes! Would love to know how the crowd that protests better public transit, pedestrian paths and bike lanes as “taking away space from cars” will respond to roads being further clogged with… empty cars? We’re really going to spend billions and billions on further car infrastructure, more reduction in space-constrained cities towards pedestrian and bike infrastructure, and even the displacement of existing homes and…

To be fair, the current cars on the road are, on average, almost empty.

Don't know why you're being dv, I back this up:

- regarding my city (Paris) most sides are literally full of parked empty cars. I don't have the data but anywhere you go - apart the biggest boulevards and walkable very-inner-center - you'll see way more parked cars than driving ones. Indeed, 50% of space is allocated to cars while they represent 13% of the commutes [1].

- Vehicle occupancy was 1.5 in 2019 and is declining (US) [0].

0 https://css.umich.edu/publications/factsheets/mobility/perso...

1 (fr) https://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2016/11/30/a-pa...

Re: Mercedes beats Tesla to autonomous driving in California

#736

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes little sense to me? Investing in public transportation is a much more means tested way of reducing traffic accidents. Countries with good public transportation infrastructure have much less traffic deaths per 100k than car focused countries. Why? Well it makes sense. Public transportation is much more safe all around as you are greatly reducing the amount of people in charge of machines capable of easily k…

> Investing in public transportation is a much more means tested way of reducing traffic accidents. Selection bias. By definition, you're looking at public transportation that exists. How many traffic accidents have been reduced by the bullet train in CA that has had $80 billion in investment so far? Zero. > So when you say "investing in self driving cars is investing in saving lives" you are right. It's just a much…

Personally, I don't even think the two are in conflict. Many of the comments on this article vastly underestimate self-driving's impact. Self-driving creates motives to use transit because it allows the economics of automobile fleets to consolidate around shared use instead of ownership - the pull of "the robotaxi service is cheap", which can be pulled off with a regular, modest YoY cost reduction, will ultimately make people give up the car, and if they give up the car, they will then save a few more pennies by using the bus on occasion - the bus will be more frequent if it goes self-driving too, because it's the labor cost of drivers that determines a lot of the operational economics of transit fleets. Take out that cost and you can run a lot of tiny vehicles as well as huge trains, meaning transit, deliveries and taxis will blur together as modalities, no longer needing to provision for what pencils out with a human driver or to adopt an ownership model where the user has to buy for their largest use-case and eat the associated cost. They can go smaller without much issue and rent larger as needed. It's a different vocabulary of "what transit is" once you add that dynamic.

The political element follows directly from that: if you aren't a car owner, but you are a bus and taxi user, you stop caring about parking and the specifics of your commute route. The robocar service will lobby the city for their own efficiency in your place - and what benefits their efficiency also benefits the users. So in one stroke you end up with an urban population that is aligned to empty out huge swathes of road space and garages for other uses such as bus lanes, bike parking, etc. People will feel safer on a bike because the cars will drive safely, and this is found in studies to be the main bottleneck to bicycle usage, so investment in dedicated bike infra could flatline in a self-driving environment, and bike usage will still rise!

It's hard to find an angle where there is truly a downside - the doomer response is kneejerk.

Re: Mercedes beats Tesla to autonomous driving in California

#737
post #709
post #702

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're really missing the point. It won't actually be cheaper except for the few customers who rely mostly on public transportation. Driving children to activities is hardly a "corner case". It's bizarre how disconnected many HN users are from how regular middle class Americans live. Very few married couples with children would be able to manage with one car; they often need to go different places.

I'm sorry, I wanted to quote: > And what if I need to evacuate the family in a natural disaster? When I said it's a corner case but pasted the wrong sentence. > You're really missing the point. It won't actually be cheaper except for the few customers who rely mostly on public transportation. Am I? Why would you not expect it to become cheaper overtime? Uber/etc. needs human drivers who need to be paid and car sharin…

> Am I? Why would you not expect it to become cheaper overtime?

Ride sharing services are amenable to network affects. I.e. they tend to end in monopoly. And monopolies are not known for reducing costs for the customer. If some effective regulation could counter the network effect, i.e. make it easier and cheaper to switch between different sevices, then a monopoly could be avoided.

Re: Mercedes beats Tesla to autonomous driving in California

#738
post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about someone who doesn’t want to travel with other people in public transport, and also doesn’t want to walk the 10 minutes of the journey?

Then I guess it's their loss. Unless they're unable to use public transport, I shouldn't have to have the externalities of them using cars, such as carbon emissions, parking space that would otherwise be used, noise and light pollution, etc.

I guess the people having to deal with the externalities could consider them their loss.

Re: Mercedes beats Tesla to autonomous driving in California

#739
post #709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, I wanted to quote: > And what if I need to evacuate the family in a natural disaster? When I said it's a corner case but pasted the wrong sentence. > You're really missing the point. It won't actually be cheaper except for the few customers who rely mostly on public transportation. Am I? Why would you not expect it to become cheaper overtime? Uber/etc. needs human drivers who need to be paid and car sharin…

> Am I? Why would you not expect it to become cheaper overtime? Ride sharing services are amenable to network affects. I.e. they tend to end in monopoly. And monopolies are not known for reducing costs for the customer. If some effective regulation could counter the network effect, i.e. make it easier and cheaper to switch between different sevices, then a monopoly could be avoided.

> Ride sharing services are amenable to network affects

Are they? Currently it's a low margin business with no real moat. It's hard to maintain high market share without continues subsidies.

> make it easier and cheaper to switch between different sevices

What barriers and/or costs are there for consumers which would make it difficult for them to switch between different services?

Re: Mercedes beats Tesla to autonomous driving in California

#740
post #639
post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about someone who doesn’t want to travel with other people in public transport, and also doesn’t want to walk the 10 minutes of the journey?

> and also doesn’t want to walk the 10 minutes of the journey? If they have a pre-existing medical condition: sure, they can use an alternative method of transportation. If they don't want to walk for 10 minutes, they're bound to have a medical condition soon-ish.

Walking seems like a waste of time to me. It's a slow form of transportation and a very inefficient form of exercise.
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