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Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

thetimes.co.uk

471–480 of 1001 posts

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#471
post #431

I'd like for someone to throughly research and write about how it became taboo to discuss the virus leak theory. How researchers who discussed it were shunned, tagged as racists, and in some cases had their posts banned from Social Media. About how almost the entire scientific community discarded the idea as impossible. How during the early pandemic years, no mainstream news media dared talk about the possibility. Te…

How did it become taboo to discuss biological sex, race, the effects of migration on society and other topics in democratic, liberal countries?

How did it become taboo to discuss the pros and cons of a specific vaccine or the complex geopolitical background of the Russo-Ukrainian war?

An ad-hoc coalition of political parties, NGOs, activists and journalists has hijacked public discourse, are manufacturing an official narrative and selling it as as unassailable truth while bullying and mobbing any dissenters.

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was absolutely taboo. If you tried to bring it up you were shouted down as a far right conspiracy theorist, or racist. Mashup of clips from the news: https://youtu.be/zl-X-Lgrlf0 Jon Stewart was the first to call this into question publicly, which was brave at the time. Watch Colbert push back on Stewart’s line of reasoning: https://youtu.be/sSfejgwbDQ8 Honestly questioning anything covid-related was taboo at that…

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Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#473
post #29
post #11

Early on the article makes a conjecture that others also make which I think is part of why the topic is so hot: “Whether the virus emerged as a result of a leak from a laboratory or from nature has become one the most controversial problems in science.” The words “in science” are my problem here: people thinking this is a “scientific” question. It’s a history question, a political question, and could be made into a f…

I think when they say Science they actually mean: the scientific community.

One of the allegations is that one or more lab workers were sick with covid in 2019.

Their colleagues - the scientific community - cannot through science alone determine if this was true.

If it happened then they went to a nearby hospital. To investigate there is possibly a police matter, certainly a health matter, a political matter and many things - but is not answered by waving the magic science wand. And so on.

People who claim it’s a science question are shallow or deceitful.

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh if it came from the lab we could still today have a shot at finding out what went wrong and then use that to improve safety at other labs worldwide. Assuming relevant records weren’t destroyed, anyway. If we can tell that they were destroyed, then USA et al should immediately stop supporting Chinese virology research in any way and pressure them to close the facilities via sanctions etc. In order to find out eithe…

We're too far removed from the time and place to accurately determine what happened. Even if we had first-hand witnesses or documentation, the disinformation 'aura' around the whole thing makes it impossible to get the honest truth out. There's no chain of custody for evidence that you, yourself would trust. That's what I mean that at this point it doesn't matter what the reality was, the damage is still compounding…

I'm confused by your post.

    "the jab will kill you"
Why did, an educated RN, believe this? And why was she trying to spread the idea? Is this RN also (generally) an anti-vaxxer? I'm not sure if it is the location of so many media outlets, but Los Angeles County (and Orange County) does seem to be the epicenter of anti-vaxxer culture in the US.

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was it really taboo? I didn’t get this feeling where I live (admittedly not the USA). It’s just that it became clear pretty quickly that the investigation was going nowhere as China wasn’t going to honestly cooperate. That didn’t leave much to discuss. For the official response, it was to be expected. The UN does plenty of compromises with authoritarian countries for the sake of being able to operate. It would have b…

It was absolutely taboo. If you tried to bring it up you were shouted down as a far right conspiracy theorist, or racist. Mashup of clips from the news: https://youtu.be/zl-X-Lgrlf0 Jon Stewart was the first to call this into question publicly, which was brave at the time. Watch Colbert push back on Stewart’s line of reasoning: https://youtu.be/sSfejgwbDQ8 Honestly questioning anything covid-related was taboo at that…

Wow, I already liked Stewart but really respect him to have the stones to bring that up. He doesn't fall into the left or right dichotomy.

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one credible is saying china intentionally released the virus or built it with the intention of building a weapon. To add to this, most countries have turned away from infectious biological weapons because they are near impossible to control. The the release of them might harm your enemies, but at a serious cost to yourself. It is like trying to cut off your enemy's leg by cutting off your own arm. It ends up ki…

> To add to this, most countries have turned away from infectious biological weapons because they are near impossible to control. Most countries ( small to mid-tier ) lack the expertise, will or reason for it. But most major countries are working on biological weapons. If you think the US, Russia, China, UK, France, Germany, Japan, Israel, etc aren't running bio-weapons labs, then you are being too trusting at best o…

You wrote:

    But most major countries are working on biological weapons.
And provided no evidence or sources.

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one credible is saying china intentionally released the virus or built it with the intention of building a weapon. To add to this, most countries have turned away from infectious biological weapons because they are near impossible to control. The the release of them might harm your enemies, but at a serious cost to yourself. It is like trying to cut off your enemy's leg by cutting off your own arm. It ends up ki…

> To add to this, most countries have turned away from infectious biological weapons because they are near impossible to control. Most countries ( small to mid-tier ) lack the expertise, will or reason for it. But most major countries are working on biological weapons. If you think the US, Russia, China, UK, France, Germany, Japan, Israel, etc aren't running bio-weapons labs, then you are being too trusting at best o…

> If you think the ... aren't running bio-weapons labs, then you are being too trusting at best or too naive at worst.

No, they are. But that's a bit different. Though I understand the confusion. Gain of function research can be classified as weapons. You got to develop weapons to defend against them. And of course, momentum. Especially in politics, where once funding is given it is hard to take it away, though not hard to reduce. I'm more saying if they would seriously deploy such a weapon and how serious the research is.

> What makes you think leaders aren't willing to hurt their own countries to hurt their enemies?

Some yes, some no. I think most countries have learned that the Russian strategy doesn't lead to great outcomes. Then again, you think Russia would have learned it too. But most countries realize that you can't rule over the dead. But you're right, that I may be too trusting. As far as vaccines, it is hard to keep those secret. Especially if we're talking about a country like China with a billion people, where you have to distribute at least a few hundred million. You don't think a few are going to fall off the truck? There'd be a lot of money for such a situation. Or even just the recipe. I mean vaccines don't confer 100% immunity so it still comes with big costs to yourself. But you're right, Russia keeps doing the Russian strategy. Though this is more easily done in an authoritative country. This is a lot of what jcranmer is pointing to. One more thing to consider, it is hard to invade this region after. You might think the same thing about nuclear but there's a reason they've focused on increasing the explosion and decreasing the radiation. Same reasons.

> Every major terrorist organization is or was created, funded and controlled by major nations.

Not quite true, but if they were, then the above arguments would apply there so that no terrorist organization would get the bio weapons from the big countries. You might want to ask why there haven't been any dirty bombs, despite that this should be easier, especially after the collapse of the USSR where many nuclear materials went missing. They all went somewhere (smaller countries and probably bigger countries too, to keep away from smaller countries), but we'll probably never know the full extent.

> And yet, all weapons labs in history were created by big/rich countries.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. Not all weapons were created in big countries. But weapons like nuclear, bio, and others were from big countries because to have such a program is quite expensive. Currently bioweapons, of the kind we're discussing, are still fairly expensive. This may change as things become cheaper. But regardless, these types of weapons are more attractive to the crazy anarchist who wants to watch the world burn than the angry dictator. They just aren't practical in the modern globalized world.

But there's got to be a logical reason for well over a century of research in the area and not seeing it used in practice. If it were a good weapon, it would have been used.

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Not all of the early lab-leak voices were racist. Some people went for that conclusion because of the proximity of the outbreak to the Wuhan lab which was researching that sort of virus. They may have been a little quick to do so but they guessed right. It wasn't that big of a leap, and it wasn't anti-Chinese to think that, just sort of obvious. I know that because I felt that way at the time. And then there were the…

> Not all of the early lab-leak voices were racist.

That sort of statement is always true, but that doesn't negate the real dangers of the Right using it for political advantage. Their general approach is to drive a wedge between different groups in the US (and abroad), pit them against each other, and have them take out their rage on each other as a means to distract them from the real issues going on. It was clear at the time that the Trump administration wasn't after "the truth" but more after a way to keep people occupied - and if that puts a lot of people in danger, they don't really care.

And before anyone tries to defend the Right, take a look at these basekless attacks on drag queens. Meanwhile we have school shootings happening all the time and they don't do anything about it. It's a big shame because the a large portion of the USA isn't about trying to make things better - they just want to rage and cause damage towards others.

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're too far removed from the time and place to accurately determine what happened. Even if we had first-hand witnesses or documentation, the disinformation 'aura' around the whole thing makes it impossible to get the honest truth out. There's no chain of custody for evidence that you, yourself would trust. That's what I mean that at this point it doesn't matter what the reality was, the damage is still compounding…

I'm confused by your post. "the jab will kill you" Why did, an educated RN, believe this? And why was she trying to spread the idea? Is this RN also (generally) an anti-vaxxer? I'm not sure if it is the location of so many media outlets, but Los Angeles County (and Orange County) does seem to be the epicenter of anti-vaxxer culture in the US.

A presidential campaign lured in my educated aunt. It will never make sense.
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