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It’s not the chemicals that cause addiction (2017)

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Re: It’s not the chemicals that cause addiction (2017)

#51

Post by reliablereason »

You have to use a very strange definition of "cause" for the articles title to be true.

If there was no chemical the addiction to the chemical would not be there. It is obvious.

The existence of the chemical is part of a hugely complicated causal tree that leads to addiction. The argument laid out in the article is a false dichotomy, which is denying one part of the causal tree(the existence of the drug) by pointing to one part of another part of the causal tree(social factors).

Real change (the end of the war on drugs) should come from facts not poorly laid out rhetorics.

Re: It’s not the chemicals that cause addiction (2017)

#52

Post by zephrx1111 »

I disagree with this article, not because of it's correctness, which I don't care. It is more about the perspective. This kind of "explanation", has nothing good to solve the problem. It is just yet another aftermath "excuse research".

In east Asia, we had an infamous example: Chang Hsueh-liang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang%20Hsueh-liang . The problem is clear here: if we could find an excuse for him, then we could for anybody.

Let's ask ourselves this question: do we want our kids addicting to drugs, or do we want ourselves addicting to drugs? If the answers are no, still the question will be, going forward what we can do, which this article has little advice.

Re: It’s not the chemicals that cause addiction (2017)

#53

Post by loeg »

lowbloodsugar wrote: post #17
loeg wrote: post #4

Another rehashing of Rat Park, a dubious study which has never replicated. I’m pro legalization, but this isn’t a good angle for arguing that case. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park

Your link doesn't provide any evidence that the study was dubious. If anything the counter arguments seem dubious.

I was providing the link as context and a jumping off point for further reading, if you were curious (which is encouraged here). If you're looking for criticisms of Rat Park, I suggest starting with the "Criticisms" section on the Wikipedia article.

Re: It’s not the chemicals that cause addiction (2017)

#54

Post by daniel-cussen »

refurb wrote: post #22
xrd wrote: post #13

I've got a friend who recently was hospitalized for fentanyl addiction. Twenty years ago he was my first investor in my first startup. He was the guy that taught me about mediation. He was the first vegetarian I knew. He owned four cab licenses in Portland. Then Uber came in and shredded his retirement plan. The cab company forced him out so he wouldn't even capitalize on the partial ownership of the land they owned.…

Oxycodone was always known to be addictive. It’s right on the label from day one. “Also at the time of OxyContin’s approval, FDA product labeling warned of the danger of abuse of the drug and that crushing a controlled-release tablet followed by intravenous injection could result in a lethal overdose. There was no evidence to suggest at the time that crushing the controlled-release capsule followed by oral ingestion…

Yeah that was saying if you crushed n injected it would be addictive. No. It was addictive in literally any form. They knew that too, n it wasn't on the packaging.

You kind of have to be a monster to say something that callous.

Re: It’s not the chemicals that cause addiction (2017)

#55

Post by davelondon »

It's a nice story but it's actually a load of rubbish...

https://theoutline.com/post/2205/this-38-year-old-study-is-s...

"Despite his claims of a revolutionary breakthrough, Alexander had trouble finding a journal to publish his results. Both Science and Nature rejected the study for publication, likely due to significant problems with the methodology and results. Pharmacology Biochemistry and Behavior published the results in 1981 with little response and the funding for Rat Park was canceled shortly thereafter."

"When scientists tried to replicate the Rat Park study, they got mixed results. In 1996, a study attempted to precisely replicate the conditions in Alexander’s Rat Park, down to the breed of rat. The researchers conducted two experiments to see if they could replicate the Rat Park study’s results. In the first experiment, the happy, social rats consumed slightly more of the morphine liquid, in the second experiment, the isolated rats drank slightly more. Neither experiment reflected the Rat Park’s results, which had the isolated rats drinking up to seven times the amount of the morphine liquid as the social rats."

Re: It’s not the chemicals that cause addiction (2017)

#56

Post by throw-4e451c8 »

xrd wrote: post #13

I've got a friend who recently was hospitalized for fentanyl addiction. Twenty years ago he was my first investor in my first startup. He was the guy that taught me about mediation. He was the first vegetarian I knew. He owned four cab licenses in Portland. Then Uber came in and shredded his retirement plan. The cab company forced him out so he wouldn't even capitalize on the partial ownership of the land they owned.…

> He owned four cab licenses in Portland. Then Uber came in and shredded his retirement plan.

I am sorry for your friend, but not for him losing out on his rent seeker plans.

Re: It’s not the chemicals that cause addiction (2017)

#57

Post by xigency »

stan_kirdey wrote: post #49
pstuart wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should not treat drug addiction as a crime -- it's a medical condition and should be addressed in that context. That said, we need to find a way to institutionalize and treat those that have become non-functional from their addiction(s). And that power needs to be wielded with extreme transparency and accountability.

"we should not treat drug addiction as a crime" - I don't think anyone is saying otherwise

Placing the blame on the substance rather than society is an on-ramp to criminalization.

Re: It’s not the chemicals that cause addiction (2017)

#58

Post by mobilefriendly »

xrd wrote: post #13

I've got a friend who recently was hospitalized for fentanyl addiction. Twenty years ago he was my first investor in my first startup. He was the guy that taught me about mediation. He was the first vegetarian I knew. He owned four cab licenses in Portland. Then Uber came in and shredded his retirement plan. The cab company forced him out so he wouldn't even capitalize on the partial ownership of the land they owned.…

My family member died from his addiction and I'm still angry at him. He made several decades of selfish, disastrous choices. He had every advantage in the world and squandered it all. I'm angry we don't do more to fight these drugs. Drug dealing is very much a violent crime, it killed my cousin. The popular culture that celebrates drugs and dealers.

Plenty of blame all around but central is the person who decides to use.

Re: It’s not the chemicals that cause addiction (2017)

#59

Post by xrd »

ThePhantom wrote: post #46
xrd wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, my friend is in the hospital and apparently will be there for a week or two. So he will leave with several hundred thousand dollars of debt, which will probably be shackled around his mom's neck. This is a medical crisis that will never get solved because our medical system doesn't want to handle people with these addictions. No one does of course. But that's the only way to solve it in my opinion.

Sorry to hear about your friend. What was he hospitalized for? Several hundred thousand dollars is an exorbitant amount of money even with how high the cost of healthcare is in the US.

From a mutual friend, apparently the withdrawals were severe. He was actually admitted to a recovery place with his mom's help (that was $45k for a month!). Fentanyl is stored in fat cells apparently. It takes a long time to leave the system. So he was hospitalized because his potassium levels dropped to a dangerous place.

I'm not sure of the price tag. But i had another friend who was told to go to another hospital when his wife's pregnancy took a bad turn. They spent two weeks and it was several hundred thousand. The insurance said, just beg the hospital to reduce it? It was ridiculous. I'm just sure my friend won't leave with that covered. Not the hospitals responsibility for sure but it's outrageous the cost and prevents people from seeking help.

Re: It’s not the chemicals that cause addiction (2017)

#60

Post by euiq »

throw-4e451c8 wrote: post #56
xrd wrote: post #13

I've got a friend who recently was hospitalized for fentanyl addiction. Twenty years ago he was my first investor in my first startup. He was the guy that taught me about mediation. He was the first vegetarian I knew. He owned four cab licenses in Portland. Then Uber came in and shredded his retirement plan. The cab company forced him out so he wouldn't even capitalize on the partial ownership of the land they owned.…

> He owned four cab licenses in Portland. Then Uber came in and shredded his retirement plan. I am sorry for your friend, but not for him losing out on his rent seeker plans.

this exchange is so hacker news
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