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The Mao-Kissinger Meeting of 1973

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Re: The Mao-Kissinger Meeting of 1973

#271

Post by hackandthink »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #252
hackandthink wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is about Nuland's interference: https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/feb/07/eu-us-di...

My favorite part was when Victoria Nuland poisoned Yuschenko with dioxin and turned him into an orange version of the Yellow Bastard from Sin City, years before orange skin became en vogue in American political circles. Also, there was that time when Nuland went on a hunting "vacation" in Donbas and bagged a Boeing, then hotfooted it across the Russian border with an innocent twinkle in her eye. And don't forget the…

Yes, it's a game.

Who has the nastiest trick? Who liquidates more people? Who overthrows more regimes? ...

sometimes Russia wins, sometimes the US wins

I do not know much about Mrs. Nuland and do not care about her. But she seems to be a good player:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Nuland

Re: The Mao-Kissinger Meeting of 1973

#272

Post by hutzlibu »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #270
hutzlibu wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, my original point was the legal precedent. Invading another country without the need for self defense. (Or were there any indications, that Iraq was about to attack the US at all?) So at no point I said it is the same. But if you want actual official numbers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War 200 000 dead Iraq civilians vs 9 000 in Ukraine And regarding torture and rape, you might have mi…

9000, LOL. OK, Olga. We identified and prosecuted the perpetrators of Abu Ghraib. What legal fate is in store for the butchers of Bucha?

"We identified and prosecuted the perpetrators of Abu Ghraib. "

Partly. But yes, that is a difference between US and russia. Because there they got decorated.

"9000, LOL. OK, Olga."

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293492/ukraine-war-casu...

So do you have better numbers?

Or in general, do you have actually intentions of being open to discussion, including the hypthetical posibility, that your initial position might be wrong? Because that is kind of the base for a normal debate.

Re: The Mao-Kissinger Meeting of 1973

#273

Post by oilchange »

qwytw wrote: post #189
mytailorisrich wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is normal pragmatism and real-politik. Mao is looking after his and China's interests. The public are usually fed simplistic, emotional propaganda by their governments, all of them: good vs evil, right thing to do, freedom, whatever. But in fact policies are based on interests and cold calculations.

> Mao is looking after [..] China's interests Yes, just like during the "Great Leap Forward" and the cultural revolution. Sure...

Which helped china industrialize and develop nukes... The primary concern for china at that time was being invaded and/or nuked by the US and/or the Soviet Union. Also, it's silly to blame or praise Mao or Kissinger or anyone for the success or failure of a major country. Mao nor Nixon nor Xi nor Putin nor Trump are "gods". They are ultimately figureheads of the state/elites. You can easily tell what is propaganda by the way any media focuses on an individual rather than a system, elites, etc. Ever notice how it's always the singular Putin or Xi or Trump or Biden who is the "bad" guy in propaganda?

Also, if the great leap forward and the cultural revolution were as bad as the propaganda says it was, china wouldn't have been able to industrialize. China would have crumbled and become a vassal of the US or the Soviet Union.

Re: The Mao-Kissinger Meeting of 1973

#274

Post by lenkite »

_kbh_ wrote: post #263
lenkite wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Because this never happened, this is a persistent myth spouted by people like Putin to justify the rape and torture of Ukraine." A "myth" recorded in Ukraine's laws by passing bills like 5670-d that effectively made the Russian language illegal in most aspects of public life. Doing so in a multi-ethnic nation in any other part of the world would have raised howls of fascism and anti-democracy by the US mass media an…

> A "myth" recorded in Ukraine's laws by passing bills like 5670-d that effectively made the Russian language illegal in most aspects of public life. Doing so in a multi-ethnic nation in any other part of the world would have raised howls of fascism and anti-democracy by the US mass media and state dept and extensive condemnations in the UN. But hey, its Ukraine - a promised NATO partner - who cares about the folks a…

"This desperate attempt to look oppressed by Russia is pathetic at this point."

This desperate attempt to deflect the actual and real ramifications of the law which made Russians pariahs in their communities is utterly laughable. Maybe you should take some time to investigate yourself. No Russian in theatres, no Russian on documents, No Russian film dubbings, be careful talking Rusian or get beat up or killed - spend some time talking to folks from Donbass and understand the kind of oppression they faced, before you call oppression as pathetic.

Re: The Mao-Kissinger Meeting of 1973

#275

Post by CamperBob2 »

hutzlibu wrote: post #272
CamperBob2 wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

9000, LOL. OK, Olga. We identified and prosecuted the perpetrators of Abu Ghraib. What legal fate is in store for the butchers of Bucha?

"We identified and prosecuted the perpetrators of Abu Ghraib. " Partly. But yes, that is a difference between US and russia. Because there they got decorated. "9000, LOL. OK, Olga." https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293492/ukraine-war-casu... So do you have better numbers? Or in general, do you have actually intentions of being open to discussion, including the hypthetical posibility, that your initial position mi…

Even the agency reporting the numbers states that the figure isn't meaningful. "OHCHR specified that the real numbers could be considerably higher." You'd also want to account for the millions of displaced and homeless, of course. The destruction of the Kakhovka dam alone will likely cost more than 9,000 people their homes.

But go ahead, Boris, keep carrying water for the worst people on the planet. Be grateful to the US for making your job easier with the Iraq war... which, I might add, many of us protested vociferously without fear of imprisonment or exile. If it hadn't been for Iraq, you'd have to fall back on the "Nazi-aligned country with a Jewish president" excuse.

Re: The Mao-Kissinger Meeting of 1973

#276

Post by the_af »

FreshStart wrote: post #269
the_af wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He thought he was. I don't think Mao was a crook in the sense of "stealing money and the country be damned". I think he was motivated by a vision for his country, why else fight so fiercely against the nationalists and the Japanese? He believed in something. Whether the Great Leap Forward or any one of his policies was a disaster is orthogonal to whether he believed in doing a great good for China.

He did neither, the revolutionaries kept out of all major battles, letting the nationalists and Japanese duke it out and then mop up the remains. He believed in violence and power and that everyone was like him.

Wikipedia lists multiple battles between the Chinese Red Army and the Nationalists, and also states they joined together to fight the Japanese. It lists multiple engagements/actions from 1927 to 1936.

Claiming Mao "believed in violence" adds nothing new, really. Most revolutionaries believed in violence as a means to reach an end. Nationalists did, too.

I think it's not controversial that Mao had a vision for his country which he tought would make China great, he was a visionary and an ideologue. You don't have to agree with his vision to acknowledge he had one.

Re: The Mao-Kissinger Meeting of 1973

#277

Post by lenkite »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #268
lenkite wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Because this never happened, this is a persistent myth spouted by people like Putin to justify the rape and torture of Ukraine." A "myth" recorded in Ukraine's laws by passing bills like 5670-d that effectively made the Russian language illegal in most aspects of public life. Doing so in a multi-ethnic nation in any other part of the world would have raised howls of fascism and anti-democracy by the US mass media an…

Well, it certainly seems their instincts to separate themselves from Russia and Russian culture and seek greater alignment with the West were correct. One side has a future, the other is a gas station with nukes, run by mobsters (although it could be argued that I'm misspelling 'monsters' here.)

Who decides who are the mobsters anyways ? Invading and occupying sovereign nations and stealing resources from them doesn't make the US a mobster apparently. Human rights and sovereignty is only grandiosely trumpeted when it is in the favour of the US.

Re: The Mao-Kissinger Meeting of 1973

#278

Post by hutzlibu »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #275
hutzlibu wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We identified and prosecuted the perpetrators of Abu Ghraib. " Partly. But yes, that is a difference between US and russia. Because there they got decorated. "9000, LOL. OK, Olga." https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293492/ukraine-war-casu... So do you have better numbers? Or in general, do you have actually intentions of being open to discussion, including the hypthetical posibility, that your initial position mi…

Even the agency reporting the numbers states that the figure isn't meaningful. "OHCHR specified that the real numbers could be considerably higher." You'd also want to account for the millions of displaced and homeless, of course. The destruction of the Kakhovka dam alone will likely cost more than 9,000 people their homes. But go ahead, Boris, keep carrying water for the worst people on the planet. Be grateful to th…

You know, I did not expect a serious debate from post 1 of you, but I was curious if you would eventually have something to say besides insults. Apparently not much.

Because "considerably higher" than 9000 would still be way below 200 000, right?

Can you acknowledge that?

Because this is not an honest debate otherwise.

And about the insult that I am caring water for Putin. Well, you don't seem to read very well, what I wrote about him. In either case, he is 100% responsible for his actions. At no point did I deny that.

But the reasons enabling him to do his shit, are considerably more complex.

And the demolition of international law is a, or the big factor in my eyes. And if you cannot see the US part in this, then it seems this is, because you do want to see it.

And you know what, this is the same attitude and vibe I get when discussing with prowar russians.

But again, no the US is not on par with russia in terms of human rights abuse. (I never said anything like that.) But the nationalistic, black and white groupthink arguments - they sound pretty similar to me. Alone the fact, that you put me in the pro russia camp, just because I don't share your thinking - is very telling.

So maybe to give you something to think, I can repeat what I wrote elsewhere in this thread. If I would not have little children, I likely would have been in Ukraine as a volunteer.

Is this something a "Boris" would write? And spoiler alert, actually yes, because there are russian militias fighting for Ukraine. So maybe stop with Antirussian comments at some point? All you do with that, is pushing the russian population behind Putin. Because this is his narrative, that the west wants to destroy russia. So blanket antirussian policies and defamation of anything russian, are actually helping him.

Re: The Mao-Kissinger Meeting of 1973

#279

Post by CamperBob2 »

hutzlibu wrote: post #278
CamperBob2 wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the agency reporting the numbers states that the figure isn't meaningful. "OHCHR specified that the real numbers could be considerably higher." You'd also want to account for the millions of displaced and homeless, of course. The destruction of the Kakhovka dam alone will likely cost more than 9,000 people their homes. But go ahead, Boris, keep carrying water for the worst people on the planet. Be grateful to th…

You know, I did not expect a serious debate from post 1 of you, but I was curious if you would eventually have something to say besides insults. Apparently not much. Because "considerably higher" than 9000 would still be way below 200 000, right? Can you acknowledge that? Because this is not an honest debate otherwise. And about the insult that I am caring water for Putin. Well, you don't seem to read very well, what…

So you don't see even the slightest trace of bad faith in comparing a (disputed) figure of 200,000 deaths over 20 years with a figure of 9,000 deaths over 18 months which is acknowledged as an underestimate by the very agency that cites it?

I mean, I have little choice but to believe you when you say you're not on the side of the Russian government here -- and you're certainly right in that #NotAllRussians are to blame. I agree I need to be a bit more careful with language like that. So why are you adopting their propaganda arguments, specifically by dredging up the Iraq war to make an unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation somehow less unacceptable? What do you gain from doing that? What point do you imagine you are making?

The Iraq invasion was an atrocity, an outrage that, as I said, many of us protested at the time. It has nothing whatsoever to do with current events in Ukraine. You might as well cite the Trail of Tears or the Tuskegee Experiment. Why even bring it up?

Re: The Mao-Kissinger Meeting of 1973

#280

Post by CamperBob2 »

lenkite wrote: post #274
_kbh_ wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A "myth" recorded in Ukraine's laws by passing bills like 5670-d that effectively made the Russian language illegal in most aspects of public life. Doing so in a multi-ethnic nation in any other part of the world would have raised howls of fascism and anti-democracy by the US mass media and state dept and extensive condemnations in the UN. But hey, its Ukraine - a promised NATO partner - who cares about the folks a…

"This desperate attempt to look oppressed by Russia is pathetic at this point." This desperate attempt to deflect the actual and real ramifications of the law which made Russians pariahs in their communities is utterly laughable. Maybe you should take some time to investigate yourself. No Russian in theatres, no Russian on documents, No Russian film dubbings, be careful talking Rusian or get beat up or killed - spend…

Gee. I wonder why the interests of ethnic Russians might not be respected by the majority of the Ukrainian populace.

It's not prejudice when you have a Holodomor in your history books.

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