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New York City will charge drivers going downtown

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Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#531

Post by SllX »

throw3823423 wrote: post #512
SllX wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, depends a lot on the State. You can generally make two generalizations about local governments in the United States: they are local governments and you can’t make any other generalizations about them because everything depends on the State and sometimes a locality’s specific circumstances. In California, municipalities do not adhere to the counties they are in, the county is a legal subdivision of the State whic…

In practice, there are no explicit constitutional protections for municipalities. So really, it's all states that can stomp on municipal legislation with impunity if they really felt like it. There might be a state constitution or two on the way, but those are easy to change, and many a state government is capable of either outright ignore constitutional changes brought in by voters, or do some aggressive deception i…

There you go making generalizations about 50 separate sovereign entities with 50 different legislatures, constitutions and court systems independent of each other.

But yes, legislatures can change laws on a whim, which is quite a bit more of a process than when I do something on a whim. Given the half-a-hundred entities that are the subject of your comment, some variability in the laws and political processes creating different outcomes depending on their jurisdiction is an expected result.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#532

Post by earthling8118 »

Auracle wrote: post #508
nostrebored wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really is. Have you been in New York? In the area that this is being implemented in, you can absolutely survive without ever setting foot in a car. Other cities should have been planned around density. Instead we have suburban hellscapes where kids can’t be kids and there’s no real community. The car has been the single most destructive piece of mass-adopted tech for urban planning and lifestyle. If we have to sta…

I enjoy walkable cities. I don't live in New York, but I couldn't do my job as is without a car. I simply have too much equipment. There are probably many other people in the same position. I feel like step A should be to build better transit, not punish drivers.

Perhaps you could think of it less as punishing drivers and more like stopping punishing everyone else for the sake of cars.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#533

Post by hahahasotrue »

steveBK123 wrote: post #282

My main concern as NYer is the governments inability to build transit, and not for lack of money. NY will find it relatively easy to institute a new tax on drivers, but will the billions collected actually make transit better in any tangible way? NYC is also hamstrung by having its streets controlled locally by our DOT, but our transit & bridges controlled by a state agency. We just caved (again) entirely to the tran…

I can hear China laughing at us right about now!

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#534

Post by QasimK »

fy20 wrote: post #443
cj wrote: post #12

See also: London congestion charge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_congestion_charge Singapore Electronic Road Pricing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Road_Pricing Stockholm congestion tax: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_congestion_tax

It's worth mentioning that London has three types of road user fees: - Congestion charge, which applies to everyone, except residents, driving in the centre of London during weekdays - Low Emissions Zone charge, which applies to everyone driving a vehicles older than emissions class Euro 5 (2009) inside nearly all of London - Ultra Low Emissions Zone charge, which applies to everyone driving a vehicle older than emis…

That’s not right because it implies that only new cars since 2015 can drive inside the ULEZ.

The ULEZ standard requires diesel cars to conform to Euro 6, available since 2015 - the diesel emissions scandal notwithstanding. (The in-practice standards for diesel cars are much much more lenient than for petrol cars.)

The ULEZ standard requires petrol cars to conform to only Euro 4, required since 2005 but some cars manufactured as early as 2001 meet the standard including my 2002 MINI.

This means relatively few people are actually affected by ULEZ, compared to the implication that you need a car manufactured from 2015 onwards.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#535

Post by comte7092 »

nemo44x wrote: post #377
comte7092 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regressive if you ignore all of the other costs associated with driving. Drivers always love to make this argument, but it presupposes that everyone already owns and insures a car. At the end of the day it’s car dependence that is regressive.

Everyone in NJ already has a car though so it’s not material to the discussion.

1. Everyone does not own a car in NJ, just the vast majority.[0]

2. The discussion is about NYC, not NJ, so it is material to the discussion.

[0] 11% of households in New Jersey have no access to a car, see https://www.valuepenguin.com/auto-insurance/car-ownership-st...

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#536

Post by Tade0 »

nostrebored wrote: post #475
isatty wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s never that simple. There are loads of people for which a personal or work vehicle is a necessity. Public transport cannot, and is never designed to catch every edge case. I’m all for better public transportation but strong statements and mishandled public funds just sways the support of the average joe.

It really is. Have you been in New York? In the area that this is being implemented in, you can absolutely survive without ever setting foot in a car. Other cities should have been planned around density. Instead we have suburban hellscapes where kids can’t be kids and there’s no real community. The car has been the single most destructive piece of mass-adopted tech for urban planning and lifestyle. If we have to sta…

> Instead we have suburban hellscapes where kids can’t be kids and there’s no real community.

I'm not American, but from my perspective that's just an easy target, and the real problem is here:

https://reason.com/2014/08/19/august-2014-reason-rupe-nation...

The title itself isn't particularly shocking - it's the 43% of Americans who are of the opinion that the law should require 12 year olds to be supervised while playing in public parks is, to me, the absolutely bonkers part here.

Not saying suburban sprawl is a good thing - personally I find this sort of zoning silly. It's just that this isn't the problem you want to focus on if you want kids to be kids.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#537

Post by blkhawk »

MandieD wrote: post #337
ericmay wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea it also ignores that if everybody stopped riding the $100 train then you’d never actually be able to drive into the city, let alone park anywhere for under $100. Also, this is a deliberate choice. They can improve train services and lower costs. Idk why people who ostensibly are market oriented are so fixated on current prices and assuming they can’t change or be improved upon. Germany is an example $49 for a tic…

The 49 EUR/month ticket in Germany covers all local transit, and you can generally piece together regional trains to get across the country if you’re patient, but it doesn’t cover the InterCity Express, InterCity, or some long-distance regional trains. So it’s a good way not to worry about how Berlin transit pricing works if you’ve already have a Deutschlandticket to cover a Nuremberg-area commute, but getting to Ber…

I agree - takes almost 3 times as long than with an ICE.

It might be interesting to people that if you buy early enough the prices get stupidly cheap. I bought a ticket in march for May and the ticket for a Nuremberg - Frankfurt ICE would have only cost me 12,90EUR. I splurged for 1st class (instead of just seat reservation) at 22,90EUR.

So if you say visit Germany by plane you are probably booking that early as well - do yourself a favor and just book a couple of train trips early as well. That way you can save on car rental for a couple of days. The website to buy train tickets at is bahn.de

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#538

Post by maccard »

winternett wrote: post #425
returningfory2 wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your points, but I don’t think they undermine congestion pricing. Even if you take all the congestion tolls and, like, toss them in the Hudson River, the program is still worthwhile. Just getting people to pay to drive into Manhattan is good in-and-of-itself.

The last time I drove into downtown Manhattan, just inches form the bridge, I was immediately pulled over by NYPD and given an excessive $150 ticket for the window tints on my car. I demonstrated to the officer that Range Rover made them that way from the factory *limo tint" and that it was legal in my home state, but they had shown that they apparently have always had the inclination to pull people over for bogus mi…

> and that it was legal in my home state

The great american exceptionalism on show.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#539

Post by amphitoky »

eastbound wrote: post #524
kuschku wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As does Nuremberg U3!

One line in Paris, 2 in Toulouse, Lyon, it’s even more funny that it was built in the 1991 without drivers, truely futuristic.

even Budapest has an autonomous line

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#540

Post by Wowfunhappy »

ironmagma wrote: post #452
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're poor, you probably aren't driving in Manhattan in the first place. And in all honesty, if you are driving in Manhattan, you should probably stop doing that.

If you're poor, you probably aren't eating anyway. And in all honesty, if you are eating, you probably should stop doing that. If you're poor, you probably aren't getting your cancer cured anyway. And in all honesty, if you are getting chemotherapy, you probably should stop doing that. See how none of this makes sense?

No. As far as I'm concerned, nobody should be driving in Manhattan. Private vehicles shouldn't even be allowed here.

Congestion pricing is a compromise.

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