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The Mao-Kissinger Meeting of 1973

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Re: The Mao-Kissinger Meeting of 1973

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am referring to the 1997 Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security between NATO and the Russian Federation. It was signed in May 1997 during NATO summit in Paris. At the next summit in July, the first former Warsaw Pact countries were invited into NATO. Official negotiations began in September. I see no conflicts with commonly accepted definitions of conspiracy theory: "a theory that explains an ev…

So ... again, you're splitting hairs here. And then some. Official "invitations" to the first round countries (PL, CZ, SK, HU) were issued around 1997 -- but that's the last step in the process. Official "talks" began much sooner. Already the formation of Visegrád Group in 1991 (whose purpose was largely to get these countries ready to integrate into the EU and NATO). Anyway by 1993 talk of these countries joining NA…

>> Official "invitations" to the first round countries (PL, CZ, SK, HU) were issued around 1997 -- but that's the last step in the process.

Not the last step at all. In July 1997, NATO invited Poland, Czech Republic and Hungary to accession talks, to be correct. Talks began in September and took until 1999 to conclude. Full membership was achieved only in March 1999. Invitation to accession talks is by no means a formality or a last step.

>> Anyway by 1993 talk of these countries joining NATO was already all over the news (NYT: "Yeltsin 'Understands' Polish Bid for a Role in NATO").

... and that was considered as far-fetched as Ukraine's ambitions towards EU and NATO membership were in 2021. Something that everyone politely nodded to, but very few believed would happen in any meaningful timeframe. Russian army was still in Poland in 1993. Poland was in a socio-economic disaster then. Energy crisis, insane inflation and organized crime, inability to even pay government employees' wages, let alone participate in international organizations as an equal. NATO membership and American nuclear umbrella were mythical dreams at that time, often ridiculed in the press, as you will discover if you dig deeper into old newspapers. The tone changed during accession talks when it began to look like entry into NATO was really going to happen.

>> The Founding Act itself it pretty long-winded, but I'm not seeing any text that "greenlights" NATO expansion (other than by simply not mentioning the topic).

From the treaty: "To achieve the aims of this Act, NATO and Russia will base their relations on a shared commitment to the following principles: /.../ respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security, the inviolability of borders and peoples' right of self-determination as enshrined in the Helsinki Final Act and other OSCE documents;"

NATO established this clear understanding with Russia in writing before anyone was invited to accession talks.

>> But across the board -- I'm just finding your thinking to be rather muddled, and that you're just not seeing the forest for the trees (in addition to getting a lot of the "trees" themselves wrong).

The only ones trying to muddy things are those who ignore a decade-long political process in European politics and its huge bureaucratic trail, and try to give a simple alternative explanation that hinges on a handful of out-of-context quotes from Baker and Genschler, because there is nothing else to back it up. It's like quoting some overly alarmist NASA memo questioning radiation shielding of Apollo spacecraft, and using that to "prove" that the Moon landings never happened - ignoring the immense work that 400 000 people and countless institutions and companies all across the world put into it over a decade, and all the trails they left behind.

You have to throw away a decade worth of European diplomacy to subscribe to the Russian talking point about broken promises and encirclement.

Re: The Mao-Kissinger Meeting of 1973

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Every country protects in established order of the rights of its citizens living in another country, in accordance with commitments to documents of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe and other universally recognized principles and norms of international law, agreements within the Commonwealth of Independent States." Ukraine stopped following the contents of that treaty after the US supported Ma…

Ukraine stopped following the contents of that treaty after the US supported Maidan coup. Sounds like the Ukrainian people should have harbored a lot of resentment against the US for interfering with their democratic process, if true. Was that the case? In any event, what concern was this of Russia's? Russia has problems of its own, and for a nuclear-armed nation, external threats are a long way down the list. Maybe…

"Sounds like the Ukrainian people should have harbored a lot of resentment against the US for interfering with their democratic process, if true. Was that the case?"

Of-course, why did you think Donetsk and Luhansk regions held secession referendums in 2014 ?

"Maybe they should worry more about how to improve their own country and less about how to wreck everybody else's."

Why would Russia not interfere in their immediate neighbourhood in a nation filled with a large number of Russian ethnic people who were turned into second class pariahs thanks to US interference ?

Also..you must be joking about wrecking? Maybe the US should follow that advice first ? Pot/Kettle ? Look at Libya - a nation that used to have free healthcare, electricity and subsidized housing. Now brought to the stone age - famine and extreme poverty - all thanks to the manoeuvrings of the US statement department and NATO bombings.

Re: The Mao-Kissinger Meeting of 1973

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Every country protects in established order of the rights of its citizens living in another country, in accordance with commitments to documents of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe and other universally recognized principles and norms of international law, agreements within the Commonwealth of Independent States." Ukraine stopped following the contents of that treaty after the US supported Ma…

> US supported Maidan coup. What a load of bollocks. The Ukrainian people made a choice to topple their corrupt government and take control of their countries destiny. Which is an inalienable right.

Yeah, with a truckload of support and sponsorship from Victoria Nuland - the shining [Coup Lady] of the US state department - who also picked the post coup leaders.

She wasn't just involved in Ukraine. Was involved in Libya as well - gleefully cheering on when Gadaffi and his grandsons were killed one by one by NATO forces.

"What a load of bollocks."

Keep sticking your head into the sand.

Re: The Mao-Kissinger Meeting of 1973

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> But europe is not the US, as far as I know. Doesn't really change anything in the equation. Russian missiles in Kaliningrad can hit key US military installations like Ramstein AFB and RAF Lakenheath with practically no warning. They are a direct threat from a hostile country that keeps making threats about using them, this is far more serious than any imagined Mexican alliance. And yet, the reaction is... what? Wh…

"Can you tell me why Russian apologists always phrase it as if a shadowy cabal in Washington forced countries into international cooperation " Because it was verbally promised by different high ranking officials, that the NATO would NOT move further east. This does not create trust.

> Because it was verbally promised by different high ranking officials, that the NATO would NOT move further east.

This was about easy Germany and never about anything else except in the fever dreams of people like Putin.

And on that note NATO has too this day kept its promise regarding east Germany even though the country the promise was made to no longer exists.

Re: The Mao-Kissinger Meeting of 1973

#235
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is normal pragmatism and real-politik. Mao is looking after his and China's interests. The public are usually fed simplistic, emotional propaganda by their governments, all of them: good vs evil, right thing to do, freedom, whatever. But in fact policies are based on interests and cold calculations.

> Mao is looking after [..] China's interests Yes, just like during the "Great Leap Forward" and the cultural revolution. Sure...

He thought he was.

I don't think Mao was a crook in the sense of "stealing money and the country be damned". I think he was motivated by a vision for his country, why else fight so fiercely against the nationalists and the Japanese? He believed in something.

Whether the Great Leap Forward or any one of his policies was a disaster is orthogonal to whether he believed in doing a great good for China.

Re: The Mao-Kissinger Meeting of 1973

#236
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Stalin had no issue working with Hitler To be honest, the other european powers (France, but especially the UK) also had a big trust issue with Stalin, and provably had a big role in making the unthinkable (the communist-nazi alliance) happen.

> also had a big trust issue Stalin spent the last few years murdering millions of people. Without the benefit of hindsight Hitler clearly seemed like the more benign options prior to 1939..

I don't think this factored into Western distrust. The West had sided with White Russians and against Bolsheviks since forever, way before any purges or Holodomor or whatnot.

It's interesting that Stalin tried to get the West's help against Hitler before he giving up and making a truce with Germany to buy time.

Keep in mind that Germany was close and Hitler had stated he intended to expand eastwards towards Russia and he had declared that "Bolshevik Jews" were the ultimate enemy of Germany. If Stalin felt the Soviet Union wasn't ready for that fight, it makes sense that he would try to stall it. (Yes, then there's Poland and all that jazz. History is complicated).

Re: The Mao-Kissinger Meeting of 1973

#237
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very interesting how Mao claimed he preferred "rightists" in power in the West, because leftists were usually pro-Soviet. > Mao: That is to say, I voted for you [Nixon] during your election. [...] I like rightists. People say you are rightists, that the Republican Party is to the right, that Prime Minister Heath is also to the right. [...] They also say the Christian Democratic Party of West Germany is also to t…

Not surprising given Marx's theory, that capitalism, unchecked, was bound to become centralised, and monopolised. Thus, creating the conditions for a revolutionary transition to totalitarian dictatorship of the proletariat. But leaping too soon to communism retards that process.

I don't think "totalitarian" is part of Marx credo. Dictatorship is not used in that sense, and in any kind, according to Marx this dictatorship is transitional and must also end.

Agreed about the "not leaping" too soon comment, though.

In the end I think Mao simply saw the USSR as the more immediate threat, and faraway rightists in America were less of a concern -- and if they opposed the Russkies, so much the better!

Re: The Mao-Kissinger Meeting of 1973

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Along those lines runs the delimiter of the often times blurry spectrum of today's western-leftism: The Pro-Soviet western marxists of the past often became today's western pro-Russian "populists", while the western Maoists of the 1968s became today's Pro-NATO "progressives".

> The Pro-Soviet western marxists of the past often became today's western pro-Russian "populists" Please expand on that. The only thing that backing the Soviet Union and current day Russia seem to have in common is that they are both aggressive, authorities regimes. Maybe I’m missing some nuance here.

To clarify: it both makes no sense and also occurs. I've seen it in my country. Our Communist Party supports Russia in the current war, out of nostalgia for the Soviet Union.

Does it make sense? None at all. Russia and the Soviet Union share nothing today. Putin likes to remember past military glories of the USSR but rebukes communism and his country is the land of oligarchs. Ideologically Russia and the USSR are nothing alike.

I've not read anything from Maoists on Russia's current invasion, but I likewise can believe they oppose it, for the same broken thought process: if they identify Putin's Russia with their hated historical enemy, the Soviets, then of course they are against it!

Completely bonkers, I know, but it has some bizarre logic.

Re: The Mao-Kissinger Meeting of 1973

#239

Probably the most consequential outcome of US-China cordiality in the early 1970s was that China contracted with US firms to build ammonia-fertilizer factories: > "In the early 1970s, China negotiated contracts with foreign firms for construction of thirteen large nitrogenous-fertilizer plants. By 1980 all thirteen plants had been completed, and ten were fully operational." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological…

> Of course, the consequences of the Green Revolution, i.e. steep population growth The Green Revolution didn't cause population growth. That happens on its own. It did prevent massive famines. You have to be pretty far out in whackadoodle land (or a psychopath, or perhaps both) to think that's a bad thing. As an atheist, I can't really tell the Pope how to run his religion, but if there's anyone who deserves to be c…

"The Wizard and the Prophet" is a very good read in that respect. It's about the contrasting views and results of these two scientists:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Vogt

> "According to Charles C. Mann, "Vogt...laid out the basic ideas for the modern environmental movement. In particular, he founded what the Hampshire College population researcher Betsy Hartmann has called 'apocalyptic environmentalism'—the belief that unless humankind drastically reduces consumption and limits population, it will ravage global ecosystems."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Borlaug

> "...an American agronomist who led initiatives worldwide that contributed to the extensive increases in agricultural production termed the Green Revolution. Borlaug was awarded multiple honors for his work, including the Nobel Peace Prize, the Presidential Medal of Freedom and the Congressional Gold Medal."

Was one right, and the other wrong? Or perhaps there is a broader understanding, one that can incorporate both viewpoints.

Re: The Mao-Kissinger Meeting of 1973

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US supported Maidan coup. What a load of bollocks. The Ukrainian people made a choice to topple their corrupt government and take control of their countries destiny. Which is an inalienable right.

Yeah, with a truckload of support and sponsorship from Victoria Nuland - the shining [Coup Lady] of the US state department - who also picked the post coup leaders. She wasn't just involved in Ukraine. Was involved in Libya as well - gleefully cheering on when Gadaffi and his grandsons were killed one by one by NATO forces. "What a load of bollocks." Keep sticking your head into the sand.

> Yeah, with a truckload of support and sponsorship from Victoria Nuland - the shining [Coup Lady] of the US state department - who also picked the post coup leaders.

You got any evidence of this that doesn’t stink of Russian propaganda?.

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