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Ted Kaczynski has died

nytimes.com

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Re: Ted Kaczynski has died

#511

Post by cogman10 »

LawTalkingGuy wrote: post #499
cogman10 wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I found the manifesto to be lucid and well-argued. > For example, if one believes that affirmative action is good for black people, does it make sense to demand affirmative action in hostile or dogmatic terms? Obviously it would be more productive to take a diplomatic and conciliatory approach that would make at least verbal and symbolic concessions to white people who think that affirmative action discriminates ag…

> To paraphrase 'ole ted "You see, affirmative action makes white people feel bad and mad at black people which is the real secret goal of leftists". No. It's more like "Leftist activists push AA and other policies with no concern for the impact on the communities they're purportedly intended to help." > Do you, or have you ever, felt mad a black person because of affirmative action? I'm pretty sure you could find a…

> I think the point is that activists don't care about collateral damage.

I disagree mainly because of this:

> Helping black people is not their real goal.

It's a weakening of Kaczynski's argument to say it's about activists not caring about collateral. His point is more that "leftist crave power and hate themselves so they'll push policies to punish their race and social class using a moral justification. These policies actively hurt those they are supposed to help"

He absolutely mixes in there insinuations that this is all by some secret design. He spends ungodly amounts of paper writing secret about the motives of the leftist.

Re: Ted Kaczynski has died

#512

Post by MisterTea »

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #429
bkohlmann wrote: post #352

One of my good friend’s dad was brutally murdered by Kaczynski when she was a young teenager. A small bomb in a package that used razor blazes, nails, and other bits of metal to nearly tear his head off while his young family was in the house with him. And it turns out the victim was the “wrong” man, as he didn’t even work on the project Kaczynski wanted to bring “retribution” for. Kaczynski May have said some intere…

thanks for posting and sorry for your loss. I've heard the name TK first when reading Bill Joy's "Why the Future Doesn't Need Us". 15 years later I was burnt out and increasingly aware that Tech was not a force of good. I went on a 3 year journey trying to understand what made TK chose violence. It can't just be the struggle of a Pollak getting people to pronounce his name correctly, however hard that is. I started b…

> Ellul will push you off the cliff of society and do something that today is unthinkable: to question technology and technological progress itself.

I don't think this is as radical of an idea as you think as I think about this quite often. Basically the grim realizations of the harm I bring upon the earth in pursuit of my career, hobbies, and other lifestyle choices. It honestly bothers me regularly enough to make me question myself and my identity.

As for trying to understand TK - Did at any point you acknowledge - "I neither have his unique psyche and the lifetime of unique input that shaped it?" You didn't turn to criminality because you aren't TK. No amount of cosplaying will make you think like TK.

Re: Ted Kaczynski has died

#513

Post by Lammy »

crhulls wrote: post #31

His manifesto is worth reading. Although he was obviously a twisted man many of his predictions for the future were eerily prescient. http://editions-hache.com/essais/pdf/kaczynski2.pdf

I find “The System’s Neatest Trick” to be a much more enjoyable and applicable read: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ted-kaczynski-the-sy...

Re: Ted Kaczynski has died

#514

Post by SantalBlush »

cogman10 wrote: post #376
dilap wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? I would completely disagree. Reading his manifesto at 14 after seeing endless newspaper descriptions of it as incoherent, rambling, crazy, etc. was an eye-opening moment for me: I found the manifesto to be lucid and well-argued. In a moment of shock I realized you can't trust the newspapers, at all -- a judgement I hold even more strongly today, with a few decades more of experience. I'd encourage anyone who…

> I found the manifesto to be lucid and well-argued. > For example, if one believes that affirmative action is good for black people, does it make sense to demand affirmative action in hostile or dogmatic terms? Obviously it would be more productive to take a diplomatic and conciliatory approach that would make at least verbal and symbolic concessions to white people who think that affirmative action discriminates ag…

Not to mention, this is sloppy:

>To the extent that it is defined at all, our conception of leftism is defined by the discussion of it that we have given in this article, and we can only advise the reader to use his own judgment in deciding who is a leftist.

"You'll know one when you see it" is lazy handwaving for a guy who spent this much time blaming leftism, and it conveniently sets up the reader to rely on their own prejudice when determining who belongs to his problem group. Pass.

Re: Ted Kaczynski has died

#515

Post by siftrics »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #502
siftrics wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am writing now as earnestly and charitably as possible: could you tell me how what I wrote is a personal attack? I want to engage on HN in a productive way and I do not mean to personally attack anyone. I think the reason you were able to link to so many instances of me personally attacking someone is because I genuinely do not understand what you consider a personal attack. I thought I was arguing against ideas an…

"Intellectually dishonest" (in the great-grandparent to this comment). That's a personal attack.

No it's not. It's a technical term which means that the person is knowingly making an argument that is not valid.

See the definition of validity [0] in logic.

When I say they are "intellectually dishonest" I mean they are attempting to persuade others with an appeal to emotion in a subtly-crafted paragraph that looks like a rational argument, but technically is not a rational argument --- because it is invalid --- and they know it is invalid.

They are attempting to win by emotional persuasion rather than a series of rigorous rational conclusions.

How my statement that someone is intellectually dishonest is a personal attack, I do not know. Perhaps people skip over the "intellectually" qualifier and jump straight to the "dishonest" part?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Validity_(logic)

Re: Ted Kaczynski has died

#516

Post by FooBarBizBazz »

dpflan wrote: post #391
getmeinrn wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know much about the Unabomber's victims. Where can I read about your friend's dad?

This Netflix documentary on the Unabomber was pretty interesting; there are other sources I'm sure, but this seemed good. His participation in a multi-year Harvard psychology study was a fascinating facet to the story and his development. Unabomber: In His Own Words https://www.netflix.com/title/81002216

> His participation in a multi-year Harvard psychology study was a fascinating facet to the story and his development.

There's an angle where this whole tragedy is just blowback from MK ULTRA.

Re: Ted Kaczynski has died

#517

Post by bbor »

spurgu wrote: post #474
basisword wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for posting. Far too much support and excusing of a deranged murderer in these comments.

The positive comments are mostly in response to his view/ideas/philosophy, as in Industrial Society and Its Future and his subsequent books - I don't think there's a single person here condoning the bombings. If you were to read his works you might find that he wasn't so deranged after all, quite the opposite. Edit: In terms of the philosophy/view I mean. The bombings were made out of bitterness and anger and are ine…

>He justifies the trade-offs that come with losing industrial society as being worth the cost.

That is fucking deranged. Describing it as deranged is an understatement, and it blows my mind that you’re defending it _on an internet forum_. Only someone who’s never seen someone die of violence or disease could ever say some shit like that.

Today is reminding me that I need to take hacker news commenters much less seriously…

Re: Ted Kaczynski has died

#518

Post by williamcotton »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #510
williamcotton wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The logic is really simple: someone can come up with almost any reason to justify murder if they believe themselves solely capable of such judgment. If someone recognizes the failings of every human then they are less prone to pass judgment. Did Ted K not feel justified in his actions? Did he not find his own murderous actions acceptable? Why would he do these things if he didn’t think he was devoid of the sin he saw…

> The logic is really simple: someone can come up with almost any reason to justify murder if they believe themselves solely capable of such judgment. I think if you do a survey you'll find lots of people agreeing that major oil executives and PR should be judged harshly. Not murder, but definitely being judged as bad in a way that everyday people pass. I don't think your argument works at all. Harshly judging some p…

There’s a deep level of misunderstanding and argumentativeness that makes me think you’re trolling me… so we’re done here!

Re: Ted Kaczynski has died

#519

Post by cogman10 »

SantalBlush wrote: post #514
cogman10 wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I found the manifesto to be lucid and well-argued. > For example, if one believes that affirmative action is good for black people, does it make sense to demand affirmative action in hostile or dogmatic terms? Obviously it would be more productive to take a diplomatic and conciliatory approach that would make at least verbal and symbolic concessions to white people who think that affirmative action discriminates ag…

Not to mention, this is sloppy: >To the extent that it is defined at all, our conception of leftism is defined by the discussion of it that we have given in this article, and we can only advise the reader to use his own judgment in deciding who is a leftist. "You'll know one when you see it" is lazy handwaving for a guy who spent this much time blaming leftism, and it conveniently sets up the reader to rely on their…

This sort of rhetoric is SUPER old and really common in conspiratorial thinking/circles.

It has it's roots in antisemitism and is likely older than that. We've been having pogroms for centuries because of the fear of what outsiders might be doing behind closed doors. [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews_during_the...

Re: Ted Kaczynski has died

#520

Post by frankfrankfrank »

FooBarBizBazz wrote: post #516
dpflan wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This Netflix documentary on the Unabomber was pretty interesting; there are other sources I'm sure, but this seemed good. His participation in a multi-year Harvard psychology study was a fascinating facet to the story and his development. Unabomber: In His Own Words https://www.netflix.com/title/81002216

> His participation in a multi-year Harvard psychology study was a fascinating facet to the story and his development. There's an angle where this whole tragedy is just blowback from MK ULTRA.

There’s an interesting book called Poisoner in Chief. I’m just not sure if it’s not an attempt to control/smoke and mirror the narrative.
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