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New York City will charge drivers going downtown

cnn.com

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Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#241

Post by sylens »

toast0 wrote: post #115
dangus wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This anecdote is basically another way of saying the incentives of urban design align and become self-fulfilling prophecies. Suburban dwellers stuck in the automobile mindset automatically assume that big cities must have the most horrendous traffic. It's seems like a logical conclusion: if traffic in my 50,000 person suburb is horrendous, it must be downright horrific in the big city. But that's not really how it wo…

I've not driven in NYC. But I've driven in LA, SF, San Francisco, Seattle, Chicago, Milwaukee, maybe a bit in Dallas. Big cities do have horrendous traffic in high density areas. Even if it's free flowing, there are intersections so often and pedestrians everywhere and so speeds are necessarily quite low. You wouldn't drive through there unless you don't have a choice; maybe the ferry lets off downtown and you need t…

To be fair, none of those cities have the transit infrastructure that NYC has. In fact some of them (LA, Dallas, maybe even Seattle) are cities I would classify as “car first”

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#243

Post by lkbm »

endisneigh wrote: post #178
jupp0r wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: "Drivers who make less than $50,000 a year or are enrolled in certain government aid programs will get 25% discounts after their first 10 trips every month. Trucks and other vehicles will get 50% discounts during overnight hours."

Good start but nothing about luxury vehicles :)

Surely if you're concerned about identifying how rich someone is, using value of their car is a much worse proxy than using their actual income.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#244

Post by hooverd »

jimbob45 wrote: post #207
superseeplus wrote: post #172

A big proportion of the opposition is coming from New Jersey where former Governor Chris Christie systematically diverted public transit funding to constructing more roads leaving NJ Transit with a maintenance backlog, inadequate infrastructure and unhappy workers who were poached by the MTA. This resulted in a mismatch where the infrastructure is designed to favor driving on one side of the river and a fee designed…

[flagged]

That just sounds like recency bias. Plus before announcing they're more likely to have not been in the news.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#245

Post by tick_tock_tick »

ricktdotorg wrote: post #199
dotnet00 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Describing the NYC subway as "working great" is an amazing twisting of the truth. The only thing good about it is that it isn't as bad as public transport in Long Island. Otherwise, good luck going anywhere on time without having to add 30 minutes - an hour of waste just standing around. The discomfort and cost of public transportation would be at least somewhat tolerable if there was anywhere near as much of an emph…

> Describing the NYC subway as "working great" is an amazing twisting of the truth. The only thing good about it is that it isn't as bad as public transport in Long Island. Otherwise, good luck going anywhere on time without having to add 30 minutes - an hour of waste just standing around. just to add some real numbers, we can look at the actual NYC subway data from MTA's march 2023 report[0] page 12: * ~3.7m subway…

Give me p90, p95, etc. While less frequent those are the events people remember not the other 3 days it worked.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#246

Post by estebank »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #195
George83728 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pros and cons for cotton bags: Pros: Never spills my groceries onto the sidewalk when I'm walking home. Looks nice. Cons: The CO2 emissions of producing... one square yard of cotton cloth. (Btw, how many pairs of pants do you own? Probably more than you need, I bet.) Yeah, looks like I'll be sticking with my cotton bag.

You do you. Just don't try to force people through legislation to adopt your style. Nobody wants to ban your cotton bag.

In a lot of places, the push for alternatives to single use plastic bags go beyond their carbon footprint at manufacture. Disposable bags end up littering cities, which can block drains and cause other issues. Is banning them heavy handed? Maybe. Does it work? I'd say so.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#247

Post by Jolter »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #193
superseeplus wrote: post #172

A big proportion of the opposition is coming from New Jersey where former Governor Chris Christie systematically diverted public transit funding to constructing more roads leaving NJ Transit with a maintenance backlog, inadequate infrastructure and unhappy workers who were poached by the MTA. This resulted in a mismatch where the infrastructure is designed to favor driving on one side of the river and a fee designed…

The opposition from NJ is the double dipping of already high bridge and tunnel tolls along with the new congestion toll. They also have a really meager fixed discount for motorcycles which has diminished in value as the tolls have risen over the years.

Why should motorcycles have a discount? How big should it be in your opinion, and why?

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#248

Post by BoorishBears »

wcarron wrote: post #236
BoorishBears wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll always be able to imagine cases where a broad toll doesn't perfectly align with a narrow goal, why even waste energy listing them out? Instead consider how you get the toll to actually do something: in the case of a congestion charge it's by making driving in Manhattan expensive enough to reduce how much it happens for as many people as possible. Regardless of the corner cases you can imagine, there are more p…

One could also just make the base rate $150/day and then you'll definitely make it untenable for as many people as possible, which is apparently the goal. This leads to an outcome which is you think is an unfair distribution. But luxuries are necessarily for those who can afford them. The 'cost' of the action is the same. A vehicle in the city is a vehicle is a vehicle and therefore the toll should be flat, unless th…

Their goal isn't to make it impossible, it's to reduce it. They want you to really need to drive, not just do it because it's convenient.

It seems you might not familiar the actual toll to start, it carves out a lot of special cases for that reason: people with certain incomes are exempt if they already live in the area, ride-shares have special rules, they excluded corridors around the edges of the city, etc.

You're also confused on cost here. It's not cost to the city they're trying to change with a toll (that'd be nonsensical) it's cost to the driver. If cost is hard for you to follow, think of it as "attractiveness".

They want driving to be unattractive, not impossible, not untenable... just unattractive.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#249

Post by BoorishBears »

TheCleric wrote: post #216
BoorishBears wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A dynamic charge based on social status/wealth? That's one I like actually, maybe something like the blue book value of the car? I recently moved out of NYC but I remember looking forward to the congestion charge because I loved taking my greyhound to the union square dog run, which was driving distance for me. 20$ wasn't enough to affect my plans to do that, and less traffic would actually make my life way easier…

> regressive tax I don't think that word means what you think it means.

It does, but if you'll elaborate on your incorrect understanding I'd be happy to educate you: https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/fhwahop08040/cp_prim5_...

> most forms of transportation finance—fuel taxes, sales taxes, and tolls—are regressive forms of taxation in that they burden the poor more than they do the rich.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#250

Post by Jolter »

Spooky23 wrote: post #231
jmclnx wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I saw London doing that, I expected cities in the US to start that. I am surprised it took so long. I expected this because of the push of toll roads to make people use EZPASS. Depending upon the City, I think this makes sense. But, in the US, I wonder if this will cause another mass migration of people out to the suburbs ? In the US, people are more addicted to their SUVs than heron addicts are to their drug.

It’s going to kill the city. It’s just going to push businesses out at a bad time. This doesn’t have anything to do with traffic - it’s a way to try to extract more money for the MTA. Money won’t fix the MTA’s money woes; the unions will just slurp any available cash.

I suppose you have a better idea for financing the investments, instead of congestion tax?
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