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The case for the decentralization of online forums

viksit.com

11–20 of 165 posts

Re: The case for the decentralization of online forums

#11

Sorry, I don't buy it: 1. Regarding the monetization scheme, nobody has ever gotten anything to really significantly work beyond advertising. Yes, there are some niche solutions that can support a dev team of maybe 1, but at the end of the day most people aren't willing to pay with anything except their time. 2. Social networks that don't have at least some level of top-down moderation always seem to turn into comple…

1) Agreed. Here's are 2 alternatives. Make it so cheap that it doesn't matter. Distribute the hosting.

2) Gotta quibble. I've seen (on reddit) plenty of top-down moderated cesspools. And several totally hand-off utopias too. I think the trick is 1) a subject matter that touches no nerves 2) a high enough bar for entry/respect that excludes the average riffraff.

Also we need a way to punch people in the face over the internet. Best I can think of is everybody gets a permanent dossier, publicly shared, that records all your good and bad deeds (and your judgment of good and bad too, for weighting). This makes assholish behavior muchbmore detrimental to a happy online social life.

Re: The case for the decentralization of online forums

#12

Sorry, I don't buy it: 1. Regarding the monetization scheme, nobody has ever gotten anything to really significantly work beyond advertising. Yes, there are some niche solutions that can support a dev team of maybe 1, but at the end of the day most people aren't willing to pay with anything except their time. 2. Social networks that don't have at least some level of top-down moderation always seem to turn into comple…

totally agree with you on (1). no model that isn't advertising has worked so far. but there are other ways and I think we truly owe it to ourselves as a community and society to try them.

i've spoken to maybe 10 folks who are reddit moderators. every one of them does it for the fun - but if they could be directly rewarded with something more than "internet karma points" - they would take it, and feel good.

to your second point - 100% agreement there.

I mention the grassroots moderation in another reply on this thread, but the concept of a subreddit and the control of its creation is a very important one to consider. I don't think this problem has been solved, but I have some theories on how it could be done.

by making those who start a subreddit having to put a "stake" in the ecosystem after they hit a particular threshold - and having everyone who has a stake be able to vote on their future - seems like a reasonable way to do it.

Re: The case for the decentralization of online forums

#13
post #11

Sorry, I don't buy it: 1. Regarding the monetization scheme, nobody has ever gotten anything to really significantly work beyond advertising. Yes, there are some niche solutions that can support a dev team of maybe 1, but at the end of the day most people aren't willing to pay with anything except their time. 2. Social networks that don't have at least some level of top-down moderation always seem to turn into comple…

1) Agreed. Here's are 2 alternatives. Make it so cheap that it doesn't matter. Distribute the hosting. 2) Gotta quibble. I've seen (on reddit) plenty of top-down moderated cesspools. And several totally hand-off utopias too. I think the trick is 1) a subject matter that touches no nerves 2) a high enough bar for entry/respect that excludes the average riffraff. Also we need a way to punch people in the face over the…

re (1) - how do you think about doing (1)? one of the biggest challenges in hosting this is who pays for the electricity in running the machines!

re (2) - I wish we had a way to do subjects that touched no nerves on the internet.

that said - an identity system which keeps track of your activity (anonymously, pseudonymously, or real identity) is a great suggestion and something we've implemented in our protocol.

Re: The case for the decentralization of online forums

#16

How does moderation work with decentralization

great question - something i've been thinking about a lot.

my framework is,

- moderation needs two levels (top level and grassroots)

- top level - has to come from communities that are not in an "accepted" list which shouldn't be allowed to form. (the usual suspects like hate speech, CSAM). one way to think about is having community server owners "stake" some sort of investment and risk losing it in case communities on their servers get banned. this would happen for instance if you run a server for this protocol, and someone on your server creates a community against policies set by the protocol steering committee.

- grassroots level - moderators are those who actively contribute to the community, can be elected, have audits on their logs, and can also be incentivized for their work (eg, given a "salary" every month) through that staked fund we talked about earlier.

ultimately, no one is doing any of this free and we should assume that monetary incentives in some way that are aligned with the community's have to be factored in.

Re: The case for the decentralization of online forums

#17
We are holding this discussion on a classic, centralized, web1.0 forum which - from my vantage point - is one of the most valuable and enriching forums currently online.

What's wrong with HN ? What's wrong with metafilter ? What's wrong with letsrun or doom9 ?

The problem is the mistaken notion that these can be big businesses.

If you can let go of the economics there is no technical - or usability - hurdle.

We know this because we're already doing it right here.

Re: The case for the decentralization of online forums

#18
post #17

We are holding this discussion on a classic, centralized, web1.0 forum which - from my vantage point - is one of the most valuable and enriching forums currently online. What's wrong with HN ? What's wrong with metafilter ? What's wrong with letsrun or doom9 ? The problem is the mistaken notion that these can be big businesses. If you can let go of the economics there is no technical - or usability - hurdle. We know…

There's nothing wrong with them, but reddit's size lets it gather a lot of extremely specific knowledge that, were all subreddits separate forums, would be lost. Sure, many of these communities are strong enough to run their own infrastructure, but more of them are not.

Re: The case for the decentralization of online forums

#19
post #8
post #2

Not to say there should be only centralized solutions, but there are tradeoffs. The case against decentralization is that moderation and resisting network attacks can be non-trivial amounts of work. Many newspapers shut down their forums for lack of being able to form a quality level of conversation forum without a massive amount of work. In the case of reddit, a subreddit could share the work of building common mode…

(author here) this is a great point, thank you for posting it. i've been researching this problem for a year now, and came across some interesting technical and social povs on moderation and network attacks. - moderation: my pov is that large companies with teams of moderators (such as twitter or facebook) wont and cant scale to varied moderation policies across the world. so the task of moderation has to be boiled d…

I'd like to add that looking at sybil attacks as just a network attack would be a mistake.

These type of attacks apply broadly at many different levels, for example the minimum thresholds for amplification/de-amplification can be significantly lower than the 51% that's normally attributed by definition to these type of attacks.

Any decentralized moderation system would run into issues with a sybil attack distorting reflected appraisal within a community. Some benefits of such an attack might be dropping the post out of view/delisting it, using generative ai to create harassing/malign responses attacking volunteer psychology (where they stop contributing/volunteering when it costs them).

Useless/mindless generative chatter that is akin to jamming a communications channel, but indistinguishable by most people which in the absence of a clear signal causes isolation (thanks AI).

Some of these challenges also don't have a good answer because they are fundamental problems where a solution would break automata theory/determinism. So you are left with only a bad, potential liability from an approximate solution.

Most propaganda and political warfare focuses on attacking various parts of communications with the intent to either isolate, or destroy/debase personal identity, which is largely determined by reflected appraisal.

Once isolated, with their belief system destabilized it makes people vulnerable and does dangerous/weird things to people's psychology. This has been known for quite some time though hasn't gotten much attention outside certain academic circles, and by quite some time I mean roughly generally known between the 1920s-50s.

The main driving component was formalized under the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (1929), though it was in common use by governments prior to that.

Since most social media already has these issues (but they don't communicate about them in public regularly if at all), internally they do recognize these issues and take a Signals and Systems approach, but the result is as you've seen.

If you cant exceed parity vs. competitive solutions you wont be able to increase marketshare/market penetration.

Re: The case for the decentralization of online forums

#20
post #17

We are holding this discussion on a classic, centralized, web1.0 forum which - from my vantage point - is one of the most valuable and enriching forums currently online. What's wrong with HN ? What's wrong with metafilter ? What's wrong with letsrun or doom9 ? The problem is the mistaken notion that these can be big businesses. If you can let go of the economics there is no technical - or usability - hurdle. We know…

You’re having this discussion on a marketing forum.
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