New York City will charge drivers going downtown • Hacker News Board

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#121

Post by sigstoat » Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 6:56 PM UTC

tlogan wrote: post #110

So rich people (who really do not care about few dollars) will be able to drive to downtown just for fun. while poor people who truly need to come to downtown by car will struggle. This is an unfortunate reality of life: wealth equates to more available time.

if you’re rich enough you just pay somebody else to run the errand or drive you around in an even larger vehicle.

stop freaking out about rich people being able to get something nice. they can already afford nice things. look at the overall costs/benefit analysis of the policy.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#122

Post by lotsofpulp » Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 6:57 PM UTC

renewiltord wrote: post #111

DaveExeter wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree! Let's get the poors off the roads. The peasant class belongs on public transport, not on taxpayer-funded roads.

Yep, given sufficient externalities, this is true. As an example, watch this fictional response to the fact that better cars cost more: Let's get the poors out of safe cars. The peasant class belongs in beaters, while the rich ride safe. Consider the choices necessary to make that statement untrue.

You mean how the richer you are, the bigger (and safer) the vehicle you can afford?

I drive by many parents taking their kids wherever in old corollas or kias or other small car, and I see many parents at my kids’ daycare dropping their kids off in large suburbans/F150/Sequoia/etc.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#123

Post by dragontamer » Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 6:57 PM UTC

tlogan wrote: post #110

So rich people (who really do not care about few dollars) will be able to drive to downtown just for fun. while poor people who truly need to come to downtown by car will struggle. This is an unfortunate reality of life: wealth equates to more available time.

Every time I go to NYC, I say F### the traffic, I'm taking the subway.

Traffic is horrible, subway is more than usable. Just walk.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#124

Post by zip1234 » Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 7:00 PM UTC

cyberax wrote: post #107

zip1234 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For sure, let's charge methods of transportation based on negative externalities such as how much space they take, safety, and noise/particulate pollution.

I'm all for it! It would suck for transit, though: 1. It has a higher CO2 footprint than small/medium EVs. 2. Transit forces people into smaller and denser housing, resulting in suboptimal living conditions. 3. Buses in particular result in excessive road wear&tear. It's really amazing that people say things like "car owners should not get subsidized" (by whom?), while talking about transit that is literally infeasib…

> It's really amazing that people say things like "car owners should not get subsidized" (by whom?), while talking about transit that is literally infeasible without massive subsidies.

If road usage fees cover less than half the cost of roads then clearly someone is subsidizing roads.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#125

Post by pessimizer » Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 7:00 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #79

mc32 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was poor, I took the bus to college and work (there were times I'd have to add 30 minutes where I knew I'd have to leg it). It was an hour and a half with transfers. It's doable --you get used to it, just like tech workers get used to driving in from the East Bay into the Peninsula. It's no biggie. On the way home, sometimes you get off at a different stop to pick up groceries and then you're the one walking home w…

There are multiple levels of poor, like there are multiple levels of rich. Plenty of people are rich enough to drive, but not rich enough to live in convenient locations. It’s weird that, when I was going to university, many people would save money by living far off campus and driving to pay $5 for parking. The richer kids were living on or next to campus, and didn’t even need cars. Housing is expensive, and the Amer…

> Plenty of people are rich enough to drive, but not rich enough to live in convenient locations.

Now they're not rich enough to drive, they're become poor enough to use public transportation. Maybe their votes will improve the convenience of public transportation.

To somebody who can afford to live in Manhattan, you'd have to charge $200 a trip to bother them. Just tax them, and use that money to build out public transportation.

Very weird to crusade for the right of people who can barely afford their cars to be better than those who can't afford cars.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#126

Post by paulcole » Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 7:00 PM UTC

tlogan wrote: post #110

So rich people (who really do not care about few dollars) will be able to drive to downtown just for fun. while poor people who truly need to come to downtown by car will struggle. This is an unfortunate reality of life: wealth equates to more available time.

Yes, rich people do things for fun. Poor people struggle.

It’s not a particularly deep or useful insight.

What do you think should happen here instead since you’re so disappointed with the current plan? No charge for drivers going downtown? A dynamic charge based on social status/wealth?

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#127

Post by bradleyjg » Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 7:01 PM UTC

DaveExeter wrote: post #17

Tinyyy wrote: post #11

I’m a fan of charging market efficient rates for shared goods. The congestion situation in the Holland Tunnel is awful and bleeds out into various streets of Manhattan as well. The cost of sitting in crawling traffic with aggressive drivers cutting around is probably much more than an extra $20.

I agree! Let's get the poors off the roads. The peasant class belongs on public transport, not on taxpayer-funded roads.

The “poors,” as you so delightfully put it have nowhere to park in those parts of Manhattan. So they won’t be going there (leaving aside deliveries and taxis, but then the fee is a cost of doing business.)

The group this will hit the hardest are those with de facto immunity from parking tickets. Cops, teachers, members of certain trade unions, and so on.

However, lest you worry too much about these folk in light of automated speed and red light cameras they’ve taken to obscuring their license plates or buying fraudulent paper plates on the internet. Of course nothing is done about these effectively untraceable vehicles.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#128

Post by bradleyjg » Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 7:02 PM UTC

tlogan wrote: post #110

So rich people (who really do not care about few dollars) will be able to drive to downtown just for fun. while poor people who truly need to come to downtown by car will struggle. This is an unfortunate reality of life: wealth equates to more available time.

Where are these poor people who truly need to come downtown by car parking?

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#129

Post by zip1234 » Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 7:03 PM UTC

Tinyyy wrote: post #62

zeroonetwothree wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having more money lets you buy more of everything. Yet you are only concerned about roads (which aren’t even used by the poorest segment since they can’t afford a car)? Why not focus on making something more fundamental to existence free, like food or shelter? Oh right it’s because it creates poor incentives and overuse (tragedy of the commons) exactly like we see with roads (and parking). If car drivers had to pay t…

Yea you’re exactly right, there’s a tragedy of the commons situation right now. You could either decrease the demand or increase the supply to fix this problem, and it seems pretty impossible to increase the supply (build a bridge across the Hudson? That’s crazy). So here we are.

The average speed driving in Manhattan is something like 7mph. There is not enough space for cars. Congestion charge is such a no-brainer easy solution here.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#130

Post by pclmulqdq » Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 7:03 PM UTC

dangus wrote: post #42

There's an important concept to the success of city planning: the alignment of incentives. When transit is faster and cheaper than driving, people don't drive as much. The individualistic personal freedom of the automobile doesn't outweigh those practical aspects of getting around. People generally make pretty logical decisions about what they want to do. I'm definitely in favor of congestion charges in certain areas…

> I think about cities that have implemented taxes for disposable plastic bags. I find it somewhat hilarious how many people consider these policies to be anti-freedom government money-grabs. They make a libertarian's blood boil!

> Even assuming those folks are correct, it doesn't really matter, because these taxes are incredibly effective. It's eye-opening to see how a nearly insignificant tax (literal pennies per bag) changes the behavior of everyone.

I am a libertarian-minded person who takes issues with these taxes and related plastic bag bans. My gripe is that the alternatives to plastic bags are pretty much universally less green, and both plastic pollution and total CO2 spent on grocery bags go up when a bag tax/ban enters. Flimsy plastic grocery bags get re-used as garbage bags. Paper bags, and god forbid reusable cotton bags, emit much more CO2 per use than single-use plastic bags, even if you re-use your paper bags a few times and re-use your cotton bag 100 times. They make no sense, from an environmental perspective.

They are effective at changing behavior, which could be what you mean by "effective," but they do not change behavior in an environmentally positive direction.