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New York City will charge drivers going downtown

cnn.com

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Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#111

Post by renewiltord »

DaveExeter wrote: post #17
Tinyyy wrote: post #11

I’m a fan of charging market efficient rates for shared goods. The congestion situation in the Holland Tunnel is awful and bleeds out into various streets of Manhattan as well. The cost of sitting in crawling traffic with aggressive drivers cutting around is probably much more than an extra $20.

I agree! Let's get the poors off the roads. The peasant class belongs on public transport, not on taxpayer-funded roads.

Yep, given sufficient externalities, this is true. As an example, watch this fictional response to the fact that better cars cost more:

Let's get the poors out of safe cars. The peasant class belongs in beaters, while the rich ride safe.

Consider the choices necessary to make that statement untrue.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#112

Post by krasin »

tlogan wrote: post #110

So rich people (who really do not care about few dollars) will be able to drive to downtown just for fun. while poor people who truly need to come to downtown by car will struggle. This is an unfortunate reality of life: wealth equates to more available time.

> So rich people (who really do not care about few dollars) will be able to drive to downtown just for run while poor ones which need it will suffer.

The first part is true, the second part not necessarily so, if combined with improved subway. Theoretically, it should be even possible to setup the system, where these taxes on cars to downtown directly fund subway expansion and modernization.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#113

Post by aqme28 »

tlogan wrote: post #110

So rich people (who really do not care about few dollars) will be able to drive to downtown just for fun. while poor people who truly need to come to downtown by car will struggle. This is an unfortunate reality of life: wealth equates to more available time.

Public transit has always been the cheaper option. This just makes the difference a little larger.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#114

Post by mgbmtl »

tlogan wrote: post #110

So rich people (who really do not care about few dollars) will be able to drive to downtown just for fun. while poor people who truly need to come to downtown by car will struggle. This is an unfortunate reality of life: wealth equates to more available time.

There are also rich and poor people using the subway. Improving it will improve the situation for everyone.

I'm (sincerely) curious though, who are the poor people affected? Parking downtown is crazy expensive, and there are already expensive tolls around Manhattan.

There are easy solutions though: charge by the weight/size of the car (the weight should already be on the car registration).

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#115

Post by toast0 »

dangus wrote: post #23
fellowmartian wrote: post #14

When I moved to NYC from Kyiv, I was actually surprised by how chill the traffic in New York is. Obviously it can get annoying around bridges and tunnels, but outside those areas it’s pretty easy to get around, and I live on the west side of FiDi. Not against this legislation, I think it’s a good idea, but I personally spent more time in traffic on Long Island, and upper Manhattan. I don’t own a car though, I just re…

This anecdote is basically another way of saying the incentives of urban design align and become self-fulfilling prophecies. Suburban dwellers stuck in the automobile mindset automatically assume that big cities must have the most horrendous traffic. It's seems like a logical conclusion: if traffic in my 50,000 person suburb is horrendous, it must be downright horrific in the big city. But that's not really how it wo…

I've not driven in NYC. But I've driven in LA, SF, San Francisco, Seattle, Chicago, Milwaukee, maybe a bit in Dallas.

Big cities do have horrendous traffic in high density areas. Even if it's free flowing, there are intersections so often and pedestrians everywhere and so speeds are necessarily quite low. You wouldn't drive through there unless you don't have a choice; maybe the ferry lets off downtown and you need to get to the freeway from there, but usually you're driving through downtown to get to somewhere downtown, which means you need to park, which is also terrible.

Of course, NYC is bigger than I think, and there might be some parts where density is relatively less, but the only reasons to have a car there are if you're a cab/limo driver or if you're doing the cannonball run.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#116

Post by aqme28 »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #73
raldi wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a citation for that claim? Here are a few refuting it: https://bikeportland.org/2016/01/25/low-income-households-dr... https://medium.com/100-hours/is-congestion-pricing-fair-to-t... https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/3/7/toll-roads-hurt...

I didn’t make a quantitative claim, just a qualitative one based on anecdotal evidence. I put about 1000 miles a year on my car, but I paid a lot of money to get to the point that I could do feasibly that. I’m not unusual in this either, a lot of rich techies go for urban car-light lifestyles if they can afford it. The above studies seem to only focus on the poorest of the poor, and not the lower middle class. Conges…

[flagged]

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#117

Post by okennedy »

tlogan wrote: post #110

So rich people (who really do not care about few dollars) will be able to drive to downtown just for fun. while poor people who truly need to come to downtown by car will struggle. This is an unfortunate reality of life: wealth equates to more available time.

NYC, and Manhattan specifically, is one of the rare places in the country where having a car is almost virtually unnecessary. In downtown, cars are already playthings of the rich: Just parking the car during peak hours can run you hundreds dollars of per month.

The core of NYC has walkable infrastructure and an amazing public transportation infrastructure (at least compared to much of the rest of the country). For those commuting in from suburbs, park-and-rides are already a far more cost-efficient option.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#118

Post by bpye »

cronix wrote: post #89
bobthepanda wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

London has it relatively easy; the only layer of government above it is the national one. Cities in the US are creatures of their respective states, and the swing votes in states are usually the suburban voters who would be most impacted by a charge like this. —- It also helps that TfL has a track record of delivering many miles of projects and a future expansion plan. MTA is planning on using this to keep the lights…

There's also the county government layer that cities must adhere to in addition to state/national.

London and unitary authorities don't have a county above them.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#119

Post by lotsofpulp »

tlogan wrote: post #110

So rich people (who really do not care about few dollars) will be able to drive to downtown just for fun. while poor people who truly need to come to downtown by car will struggle. This is an unfortunate reality of life: wealth equates to more available time.

This “poor people will be affected more” is a tired refrain. That is always obviously true, given the consequences of being poor.

Not every solution can or has to solve the wealth/income gap. Solve congestion with one solution, solve wealth redistribution with another.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#120

Post by aqme28 »

Tinyyy wrote: post #62
zeroonetwothree wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having more money lets you buy more of everything. Yet you are only concerned about roads (which aren’t even used by the poorest segment since they can’t afford a car)? Why not focus on making something more fundamental to existence free, like food or shelter? Oh right it’s because it creates poor incentives and overuse (tragedy of the commons) exactly like we see with roads (and parking). If car drivers had to pay t…

Yea you’re exactly right, there’s a tragedy of the commons situation right now. You could either decrease the demand or increase the supply to fix this problem, and it seems pretty impossible to increase the supply (build a bridge across the Hudson? That’s crazy). So here we are.

Encouraging transit ridership does actually increase the supply. You get far far far more people moved via buses and trains.

Buses account for about 73% of people moved in the Lincoln tunnel, but only 10% of vehicles.

http://www.nymtc.org/data_services/HBT.html

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