Mercedes beats Tesla to autonomous driving in California • Hacker News Board

Re: Mercedes beats Tesla to autonomous driving in California

#121

Post by enragedcacti » Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 6:23 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #57

throwaway_ab wrote: post #31

Many people are saying Tesla FSD is far more advanced, and I've seen videos of A Tesla driving around LA for 2 hours completely autonomously so I agree Tesla FSD is the world leader by far and blows what Mercedes has built out of the water. However Mercedes are taking liability whilst their system is in use which implies Tesla takes no liability whilst their system is in use. I'm surprised Tesla is scared to take leg…

> However Mercedes are taking liability whilst their system is in use Are they? This press release doesn't actually say so. There was an announcement a while back when they deployed this system in Germany, but that's obviously a different legal environment. FWIW, this is mostly spin anyway. Liability isn't generally something that is granted, it's either there or not. If Tesla FSD causes an accident, they can absolut…

[1] (2) (A) “Autonomous vehicle” means any vehicle equipped with autonomous technology that has been integrated into that vehicle that meets the definition of Level 3, Level 4, or Level 5

[2] (c) The manufacturer has in place and has provided the department with evidence of the manufacturer's ability to respond to a judgment or judgments for damages for personal injury, death, or property damage arising from the operation of autonomous vehicles on public roads

[1] https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...

[2] https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/file/adopted-regulatory-text-p...

> FWIW, this is mostly spin anyway. Liability isn't generally something that is granted, it's either there or not.

Mercedes is releasing an L3 product in a jurisdiction where operation of L3 products is insured by the manufacturer. That is substantially different than "someone could sue them and maybe maybe maybe win"

> The reason that "Tesla is liable for accidents" doesn't make news is... that there are vanishingly few AP/FSD accidents.

There have been 736 known AP/FSD crashes and 17 deaths. The reason that "Tesla is liable for accidents" doesn't make news is that they aren't legally liable for their level 2 system under existing AV regulation.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/theres-been-a-whopping-...

Re: Mercedes beats Tesla to autonomous driving in California

#122

Post by rhtgrg » Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 6:24 PM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #82

belter wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Took me less than a few minutes, to find in the same channel, FSD failing and the human having to intervene. Here it is at the proper time and for a video uploaded 10 hours ago... - https://youtu.be/KG4yABOlNjk?t=995 And even worst failures...looking at all these I simply do not believe the videos posted are not edited or a selection of a success out of many failed ones. https://youtu.be/KG4yABOlNjk?t=1252 https://yo…

This is a great example! I hope people will take the time to click and watch it drive. I think it’s a tough call in this case. The Tesla is trying not to block an intersection where a light is green but there’s no room to clear the intersection on the other side due to traffic ahead. In fact an oncoming car is able to turn left in front of the Tesla because it waited. Probably the law is that you should NOT enter the…

> The Tesla is trying not to block an intersection where a light is green

What light? There is none if you're talking about t=995.

Re: Mercedes beats Tesla to autonomous driving in California

#123

Post by belter » Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 6:28 PM UTC

szundi wrote: post #112

belter wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://youtu.be/KG4yABOlNjk?t=999 16:40 to 17:12

Seemed to be completely OK, a driver who is on the safe side would have just done this exactly

If you stay there, blocking traffic for no reason, and do not proceed when you are clear to go, as it did until the driver accelerated, you will fail a driving license exam in most countries.

Re: Mercedes beats Tesla to autonomous driving in California

#124

Post by wilg » Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 6:29 PM UTC

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #116

wilg wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure exactly your point. The Tesla does sometimes require intervention, that's why it's Level 2. But it's still attempting to drive in significantly more complicated situations than this Drive Pilot thing. Does Drive Pilot stop at stoplights or make turns? I don't think so. Regarding deceptive editing, plenty of people post their Teslas doing squirrely things and them intervening. So it's not like a secret th…

Attempting and failing is clearly, clearly worse for the general public and in my opinion Tesla should be strictly liable.

It's not necessarily worse, since there is a person driving the car who can prevent the car from behaving badly. What's the safety difference between this and a regular cruise control, which will happily plow you into a wall or car if you don't intervene?

And, empirically, there's no evidence that these cars are less safe when driving this way. Tesla claims people driving with FSD enabled have 4x fewer accidents than those driving without it, and nobody has presented any data that disputes that.

Re: Mercedes beats Tesla to autonomous driving in California

#125

Post by slg » Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 6:32 PM UTC

akmarinov wrote: post #67

gzer0 wrote: post #43

Friendly reminder that this system is HEAVILY limited, with the following restrictions: - Must be under 40 mph - Only during the daylight and only on certain highways - CANNOT be operated on city/country streets - CANNOT be operated in construction zones - CANNOT be during heavy rain or fog or flood roads And for comparison: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjZSZTKYEU4 Tesla FSD navigating the complex city streets of…

In the end, Mercedes assumes liability for its system, where Tesla doesn’t. Tells you all you need to know.

This doesn't mean the system is actually better. It just means that Mercedes thinks that the cost of covering the liability won't exceed the boost in sales that come from this decision. It reminds me of what an automotive innovator once said[1]:

>Here's the way I see it, Ted. Guy puts a fancy guarantee on a box 'cause he wants you to feel all warm and toasty inside... Because they know all they sold ya was a guaranteed piece of shit. That's all it is, isn't it? Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for now, for your customer's sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality product from me.

Not that I'm implying Autopilot is necessarily a "quality product" in comparison. It is just that a guarantee or liability coverage is nothing but a marketing expense for the company issuing it. It doesn't actually mean the product is higher quality.

[1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEB7WbTTlu4

Re: Mercedes beats Tesla to autonomous driving in California

#126

Post by renewiltord » Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 6:32 PM UTC

I see. This car is good enough for a morning commute in Bay Area traffic. The question is the disengagement mode. 40 mph on the highway means it only makes sense in traffic, but when the conditions are no longer met how does it decide to hand over control?

If it can reliably wake me up or pull over at the off ramp then it's good enough.

Re: Mercedes beats Tesla to autonomous driving in California

#127

Post by belter » Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 6:33 PM UTC

wilg wrote: post #124

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attempting and failing is clearly, clearly worse for the general public and in my opinion Tesla should be strictly liable.

It's not necessarily worse, since there is a person driving the car who can prevent the car from behaving badly. What's the safety difference between this and a regular cruise control, which will happily plow you into a wall or car if you don't intervene? And, empirically, there's no evidence that these cars are less safe when driving this way. Tesla claims people driving with FSD enabled have 4x fewer accidents than…

"Tesla Again Paints A Crash Data Story That Misleads Many Readers" - https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2023/04/26/tesla-...

"...Several attempts have been made to reach out to Tesla for comment over the years since these numbers first started coming out, however, Tesla closed its press relations office and no longer responds to press inquiries..."

Re: Mercedes beats Tesla to autonomous driving in California

#128

Post by jondwillis » Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 6:38 PM UTC

belter wrote: post #75

gzer0 wrote: post #43

Friendly reminder that this system is HEAVILY limited, with the following restrictions: - Must be under 40 mph - Only during the daylight and only on certain highways - CANNOT be operated on city/country streets - CANNOT be operated in construction zones - CANNOT be during heavy rain or fog or flood roads And for comparison: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjZSZTKYEU4 Tesla FSD navigating the complex city streets of…

Took me less than a few minutes, to find in the same channel, FSD failing and the human having to intervene. Here it is at the proper time and for a video uploaded 10 hours ago... - https://youtu.be/KG4yABOlNjk?t=995 And even worst failures...looking at all these I simply do not believe the videos posted are not edited or a selection of a success out of many failed ones. https://youtu.be/KG4yABOlNjk?t=1252 https://yo…

Anecdotally, in LA, I turn off FSD basically every minute while trying to use it, due to it doing something slightly “inhuman” or not ideal/too to the letter of the law, signaling incorrectly while staying in a lane that curves slightly, etc.

I can’t imagine letting it go for a full hour without causing some road rage or traffic blockage.

To be clear there is a definite driving “culture” in LA that is very permissive and aggressive (out of necessity). FSD doesn’t follow this culture.

Re: Mercedes beats Tesla to autonomous driving in California

#129

Post by jpalomaki » Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 6:38 PM UTC

akmarinov wrote: post #67

gzer0 wrote: post #43

Friendly reminder that this system is HEAVILY limited, with the following restrictions: - Must be under 40 mph - Only during the daylight and only on certain highways - CANNOT be operated on city/country streets - CANNOT be operated in construction zones - CANNOT be during heavy rain or fog or flood roads And for comparison: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjZSZTKYEU4 Tesla FSD navigating the complex city streets of…

In the end, Mercedes assumes liability for its system, where Tesla doesn’t. Tells you all you need to know.

I can understand financial liability, but what if somebody gets seriously hurt and there’s criminal charges? Is there already a legal framework in US for transferring this kind of liabilities from the driver to manufacturer?

Re: Mercedes beats Tesla to autonomous driving in California

#130

Post by jondwillis » Sat, Jun 10, 2023, 6:40 PM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #82

belter wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Took me less than a few minutes, to find in the same channel, FSD failing and the human having to intervene. Here it is at the proper time and for a video uploaded 10 hours ago... - https://youtu.be/KG4yABOlNjk?t=995 And even worst failures...looking at all these I simply do not believe the videos posted are not edited or a selection of a success out of many failed ones. https://youtu.be/KG4yABOlNjk?t=1252 https://yo…

This is a great example! I hope people will take the time to click and watch it drive. I think it’s a tough call in this case. The Tesla is trying not to block an intersection where a light is green but there’s no room to clear the intersection on the other side due to traffic ahead. In fact an oncoming car is able to turn left in front of the Tesla because it waited. Probably the law is that you should NOT enter the…

LA has an unwritten law where 2-3 cars make unprotected lefts after oncoming traffic has cleared on yellow/red lights. Letting FSD drive, it can’t honor this “cultural” (technically illegal) behavior. If I am operating it, off goes FSD in that moment.