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French tax officials use AI to spot 20k undeclared pools (2022)

theguardian.com

131–140 of 174 posts

Re: French tax officials use AI to spot 20k undeclared pools (2022)

#131
Look at these idiots using AI to find Tax Cheats, they should do like the USA IRS, and hire 80,000 new agents, arm them and get them to sign a document statingthey are willing to use deadly force (yes this actually happened here in the US this year)...

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Whats baffeling - is that the SEC should be all over this methodology - in fact - I am sure that there a re people out there right now building an AI to riffle through the Panama Papers and other "papers" scandals looking at shell companies for a way to blackmail those who are storing wealth in such.

Or using ai to find chinks-in-the-armor for ways to exploit said shell companies and their 'anonymous' owners...

I presonally used ChatGPT as well as AutoGPT to dive into Opensecrets.org and other online resources to look into the finances of congress - what their tenure is, age, salary, investments, committees served on and then major defense inititives, and the investments of congress into those contractors.

What I am trying to do is build a table of acts/laws passed which benefitted defense contractors, and then the stated investments by congress just prior to said defense deals which should reveal insider trading pretty definitively...

Re: French tax officials use AI to spot 20k undeclared pools (2022)

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It costed more to create the AI with capgemini then they recoverd. One of the reason many of us hate taxes is because they always have a "punishment" mindset. They rather lose money and punish someone. Why tax swimming pools anyway?

You misunderstand, this is 10M euro extra tax revenue each year and it was only a pilot project covering a small part of France. The payback time is basically less than a year.

Regardless 25 million of tax money to another consultancy is the problem.

They are of one the biggest benificiaries of the modern western tax system.

It's a complicated problem to solve, but not a 25 million kind of complicated problem.

Also the bill isnt finished yet. 30% error rate, they are working on finetuning solving the issues.

Re: French tax officials use AI to spot 20k undeclared pools (2022)

#133

"AI" Imagine being charged 24 million euros ( https://www.01net.com/actualites/piscines-non-declarees-la-t... ) by Capgemini, known for having fucked up every single public -private partnership in France so they can just run OpenCV on satellite pictures, while being paid for a THIRTY PERCENT ERROR RATE

lol, I whipped up the exact same computer vision thing to detect faded road markings in satellite images, in under a week. Including a horrible day of labeling images for training.

But the thing is... look at their share price. Capgemini is doing something right because their market cap is going up all the time.

Their consultants are relatively expensive to hire, and they themselves get paid relatively little.

They (and firms like them) spend a ridiculous, soul-crushing amount on sales. Building relationships with the people that matter, to then cut deals that, on the face of it, just don't make any sense. Delivering what you promise is entirely optional in this business model. (So in a nice symmetrical way their underpaid consultants are also often undertrained, because who cares)

C'est la vie, I'm afraid...

Re: French tax officials use AI to spot 20k undeclared pools (2022)

#134

Imagine an AI that instead finds potential infrastructure problems riddled across the country. Buildings, bridges, roads, you name it. Then the AI priorities them into a queue and generates cost/resource estimates for repairs. Thereby helping the government improve the livelihood of its constituents! Or wait, imagine if the AI were finding all the rivers and lakes that corporations are dumping trash, chemicals, and o…

This is actually really important! Both statements.

It would be amazing when the planning dept just has you upload a BIM an an AI not only devours the BIM model -- but this is how we are going to get to the sci-fi version of "Pull up a blueprint of downtown and show me all the air-ducts where John McClain is hiding!" and "There is a door on your left"

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But the rivers and lakes thing should be readily doable right now - based on media reports of spills - then geo locating them on a map, then pulling in studies based on toxicity and soluability of stated chemicals in the spills - then pull the environmental reports from planning agencies for 'environmental impact reports' which would have a composition of the soil, then compare the chemical lliterature to its permeability to the soil conditions in the area, with the water precipitation records - and you can see where a chemical is going to leech - and what waterways it will affect... and the environmental impact report will tell you all the critters that live in that type of habitat... and if the chemical is egregeous to amphibians, and that marsh is home to a lot of frogs....

you get the idea - but this could be done right now with autoGPT with some effort...

(I cant get autoGPT to write out files though - even though I can get it to do the work... What I think Ill do is have it write python scripts for me to scrape the data I need? Any thoughts on some approches? There is historical data trapped in ChatGPT till 2021 that can be useful for the framework, and then auto GPT to get some current data to populate with?

Or is there a tool that I should be using?

Is there a GIS-AI tool somewhere I can use?

Re: French tax officials use AI to spot 20k undeclared pools (2022)

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet they are only flagging locations for physical inspection.

That doesn't sound like French government at all. Plus that'd be monumentally impractical for them (have you seen how big France is -and how inaccessible parts of it can be?). The reputation of the tax office is that the tiniest of inconveniences is more than enough to prevent them from doing something. Oh and there's the surprisingly little known fact that French citizens torched most of the cars and half of the gov…

> That doesn't sound like French government at all.

They don’t need to go there physically. They just need to review satellite pictures, do some background work, and send letters. The point is, the AI surfaces dubious cases but in the end it’s a human making the decision.

> The reputation of the tax office is that the tiniest of inconveniences is more than enough to prevent them from doing something.

That might be the reputation amongst people who’ve never been audited. They might be too lenient by default, but they will bite you if they have to.

> Oh and there's the surprisingly little known fact that French citizens torched most of the cars and half of the government departments, including Police stations, in Paris (and Marseille, and Lille, and Toulouse, and ...) on a regular basis for 5 years now. And I bet the recent pension reform is going to make that worse, not better.

It’s difficult to see exactly what you are trying to say here. Maybe try in French, with some sources?

> So I would like to add: they won't physically inspect these pools for the simple reason that nobody wants to get killed working for the tax agency in France, and that's exactly what will happen if they go out and physically check.

You are out of your bloody mind. They already do audits in person and they will come and check if they suspect some of your declarations are not truthful. Nobody will kill a taxman over something like that. I mean, now you’ve killed a civil servant to avoid paying taxes you should have paid, so you are going to jail, pay a fine, and still pay the taxes. On what planet are you living?

Re: French tax officials use AI to spot 20k undeclared pools (2022)

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you don't have a system to track swimming pools then don't tax swimming pools. You’ll be happy to learn that France has moved in the direction to comply with your concern here.

How much do you want to bet that 1) There's a 4-5% mistake rate 2) getting a wrong conclusion of the AI turned back is a 2-year kafkaieske nightmare where you have to front all the money, and even after they admit they're wrong it takes 5 years to get your money back. And then next year you get another tax bill for the nonexistent pool and we start from scratch?

Or the AI just points it out for them to manually verify.

Re: French tax officials use AI to spot 20k undeclared pools (2022)

#137

Imagine an AI that instead finds potential infrastructure problems riddled across the country. Buildings, bridges, roads, you name it. Then the AI priorities them into a queue and generates cost/resource estimates for repairs. Thereby helping the government improve the livelihood of its constituents! Or wait, imagine if the AI were finding all the rivers and lakes that corporations are dumping trash, chemicals, and o…

> Imagine an AI that instead finds potential infrastructure problems riddled across the country. Well you need tax payer money to finance the AI that find potential infrastructure problems... So an AI that find tax avoiders might bring more tax payer money to fix other problems.

>Well you need tax payer money to finance the AI that find potential infrastructure problems

You mean like the tax-payer money paid at the pump which was sold as a way to finance the maintenance and fix of potential infrastructure problems?

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/the-gas-taxs-tortured-...

Re: French tax officials use AI to spot 20k undeclared pools (2022)

#138
post #123

Imagine an AI that instead finds potential infrastructure problems riddled across the country. Buildings, bridges, roads, you name it. Then the AI priorities them into a queue and generates cost/resource estimates for repairs. Thereby helping the government improve the livelihood of its constituents! Or wait, imagine if the AI were finding all the rivers and lakes that corporations are dumping trash, chemicals, and o…

These are all things the state used to do without AI - people did it perfectly well. Regrettably it isn't a matter of technology that prevents this sort of thing. It is the hollowing out of the public sphere, the shrinking of state workforces, and the diminishing horizons of what is considered to be 'feasible' - where feasibility is often determined by consultants.

If it was done 'perfectly well' -- we wouldnt be in the position we are in WRT infra.

Or taxes. Taxes are done exactly the opposite of 'perfectly well'.

Re: French tax officials use AI to spot 20k undeclared pools (2022)

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_enforcement

Thanks! Didn't think it was a new idea, but I didn't know the concept's name "Therefore, the mere fact that a law is selectively enforced against one person and not against another, absent bias or pattern of enforcement against a constitutionally-protected class, is not illegal." I don't think breast size is a protected class - so please carry on officers

Selective enforcement is one thing, but even perfectly enforced laws can be downright discriminatory. As someone once said: in its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread.

Re: French tax officials use AI to spot 20k undeclared pools (2022)

#140

Imagine an AI that instead finds potential infrastructure problems riddled across the country. Buildings, bridges, roads, you name it. Then the AI priorities them into a queue and generates cost/resource estimates for repairs. Thereby helping the government improve the livelihood of its constituents! Or wait, imagine if the AI were finding all the rivers and lakes that corporations are dumping trash, chemicals, and o…

Live EO is working towards that. So far though mostly focussing on vegetation encroachment and similar dangers for linear infrastructure.
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