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French tax officials use AI to spot 20k undeclared pools (2022)

theguardian.com

51–60 of 174 posts

Re: French tax officials use AI to spot 20k undeclared pools (2022)

#51
post #17

Should be trivial to spot by just looking at their water bill, no?

I would assume watering a garden consumes more than a swimming pool.

Watering plants with a watering can? Absolutely not. Watering a grass lawn to lush greenness, with a hosepipe? Agreed that uses a lot of water.

Re: French tax officials use AI to spot 20k undeclared pools (2022)

#52
post #44

You can without a doubt take this even further and train it to detect all sorts felonies. The felonies will mainly be simple ones that perpetrated by the lower and middle class. Builder working without a bill? Crosscheck income with an country wide average and their spending history. Nailed. Waitresses working without paying tax? Crosscheck size of establishment with formally employees. Nailed. Of course, this not on…

Working class and even middle class people in France (and most of the world) definitely don't have swimming pools. No doubt you're right about the general case, though.

Even in the Netherlands it’s not that rare especially outside the metropolitan areas. It’s just cold here so we do different things with the space.

Re: French tax officials use AI to spot 20k undeclared pools (2022)

#53

It’s interesting they have time for this, but going after the big fish is too much. In the Netherlands we lack the capacity to go after tax evasion using non profits. Untold millions go to waste every year, but they have enough capacity to go after small fish and their “fraud”. ( https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toeslagenaffaire , this is a big one where thousands of families were sent into 30k-150k debt for a “mistak…

Probably because most of the big fish are in politics or govt organisations, so they don't want to go after their own.

Re: French tax officials use AI to spot 20k undeclared pools (2022)

#55

It’s interesting they have time for this, but going after the big fish is too much. In the Netherlands we lack the capacity to go after tax evasion using non profits. Untold millions go to waste every year, but they have enough capacity to go after small fish and their “fraud”. ( https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toeslagenaffaire , this is a big one where thousands of families were sent into 30k-150k debt for a “mistak…

"Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."

Re: French tax officials use AI to spot 20k undeclared pools (2022)

#56

You can without a doubt take this even further and train it to detect all sorts felonies. The felonies will mainly be simple ones that perpetrated by the lower and middle class. Builder working without a bill? Crosscheck income with an country wide average and their spending history. Nailed. Waitresses working without paying tax? Crosscheck size of establishment with formally employees. Nailed. Of course, this not on…

Why shouldn't crimes perpetrated by lower and middle class be persecuted? The rich already pay a disproportionately large amount of taxes and then society excuses lower and middle class persons from paying their small share of taxes.

Re: French tax officials use AI to spot 20k undeclared pools (2022)

#57
The only interesting thing here is how this rule was simply not being enforced by anyone. Happens a lot with tax rules in many countries. Having rules is one thing, doing the leg work to enforce them is another thing. And tax systems tend to be extremely complicated.

Of course, tax auditors could just open any popular online map for a particular area, look at satellite view and do a quick count and then look up the addresses for that area. Diff that with the list of properties that do pay their taxes and job done, Tedious work and AI speeds that up. But it's not hard and the revenue is probably worth it. Also, from an AI point of view pool detection this isn't exactly rocket science.

And of course, a lot of these pools are actually mapped in open street map. I just checked this in a random part of France: 43.99847,4.92940 and compared with the satellite view in Google Maps. Lots of nice little pools that look like they are correctly mapped. An enterprising tax auditor might just export a list with a simple overpass query and them geocode them with nominatim to get the address.

Re: French tax officials use AI to spot 20k undeclared pools (2022)

#58
post #26

I m not sure if the idea of going after pools is a good one though. Is the water shortages really that big that people are not allowed to even have blow-up tubs anymore? Pools are good for cooling down in the summer. Is it better if they use electricity and A/C instead? The worst thing is that other countries are copying this anti-pool thing because it's populist .

> Is the water shortages really that big that people are not allowed to even have blow-up tubs anymore?

Yep

> Pools are good for cooling down in the summer. Is it better if they use electricity and A/C instead?

There is not much A/C in France/Europe. Go to a lake or a public pool instead, no need for A/C.

> The worst thing is that other countries are copying this anti-pool thing because it's populist .

It is necessary. Not populist, necessary. We can't afford to just scream "freedom" or "populism" every time the upper middle-class wants to enjoy an environment-destroying luxury. Think of the freedom to live of the others. Is a pool necessary ? Of fsking course not. Don't try to color this as a basic need. You don't need a pool to cool down in the summer. You also don't need a 2 tons car, you don't need to travel to the other side of the world for your holidays, and those things are very detrimental to everyone, you included.

Re: French tax officials use AI to spot 20k undeclared pools (2022)

#59
post #13

> As property taxes are based on the rental value of the property, improvements mean an increase in taxes. A typical pool of 30 sq metres would be taxed at about an extra €200 a year. Sounds like the tax authority just DDoSed itself with this, because processing all these changes is going to take some time.

Send bills, disputes are easy to check, fake dispute -> full audit. Seems trivial, not like you can hide the pool once the inspection comes around.

Re: French tax officials use AI to spot 20k undeclared pools (2022)

#60
post #44

You can without a doubt take this even further and train it to detect all sorts felonies. The felonies will mainly be simple ones that perpetrated by the lower and middle class. Builder working without a bill? Crosscheck income with an country wide average and their spending history. Nailed. Waitresses working without paying tax? Crosscheck size of establishment with formally employees. Nailed. Of course, this not on…

Working class and even middle class people in France (and most of the world) definitely don't have swimming pools. No doubt you're right about the general case, though.

Huh? Swimming pools are definitely something middle class people can afford. Just not in a city centre, obviously.
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