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Chat Notebooks

writings.stephenwolfram.com

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Re: Chat Notebooks

#11

Post by relaytheurgency »

burkaman wrote: post #8
DigiDigiorno wrote: post #5

While I think his notebooks and features look pretty useful, he frames the article around having invented "notebooks" 36 years ago before anyone else, and talks about other notebooks not having features that they've had since 1987. This is a pretty odd context to basically describe a new chat feature. Is this a record that should be set straight? I've used Jupyter since it was IPython notebook, but I don't think that…

Seems like it's debatable depending on your definition of "notebook": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notebook_interface#History But also, even if it's true, it's kind of an offputting way to start the article. I know that's his thing and I know it's discussed every time one of these is posted here so apologies for the repetitive observation.

Very off putting. I hate to admit that I stopped reading afterward. I don't like to be that way, but there's a lot to read out here.

Re: Chat Notebooks

#12

Post by electroly »

DigiDigiorno wrote: post #5

While I think his notebooks and features look pretty useful, he frames the article around having invented "notebooks" 36 years ago before anyone else, and talks about other notebooks not having features that they've had since 1987. This is a pretty odd context to basically describe a new chat feature. Is this a record that should be set straight? I've used Jupyter since it was IPython notebook, but I don't think that…

What's the predecessor with a notebook interface from before 1987? I'm not aware of one. Wolfram loves to claim he invented stuff but this one might actually be true.

The Wikipedia article suggests a contemporary in 1987 (MathCAD) but I'm not seeing a Mathematica/Jupyter-style notebook interface before that year. That would seem to have been the year of the notebook interface, and Mathematica 1.0 did come out that year with one. As far as Wolfram claims go, this one doesn't seem too offensive.

Re: Chat Notebooks

#13

Post by paulgb »

DigiDigiorno wrote: post #5

While I think his notebooks and features look pretty useful, he frames the article around having invented "notebooks" 36 years ago before anyone else, and talks about other notebooks not having features that they've had since 1987. This is a pretty odd context to basically describe a new chat feature. Is this a record that should be set straight? I've used Jupyter since it was IPython notebook, but I don't think that…

> I've used Jupyter since it was IPython notebook, but I don't think that community claims to be the first coming of notebooks.

My recollection (which could be wrong, it's been a while) is that SageMath’s notebook preceeded iPython notebooks. IIRC iPython started as a CLI repl, which may have come before the notebook.

(Mathematica came before all of them, and likely inspired SageMath’s interface)

Re: Chat Notebooks

#14

Post by stabbles »

electroly wrote: post #12
DigiDigiorno wrote: post #5

While I think his notebooks and features look pretty useful, he frames the article around having invented "notebooks" 36 years ago before anyone else, and talks about other notebooks not having features that they've had since 1987. This is a pretty odd context to basically describe a new chat feature. Is this a record that should be set straight? I've used Jupyter since it was IPython notebook, but I don't think that…

What's the predecessor with a notebook interface from before 1987? I'm not aware of one. Wolfram loves to claim he invented stuff but this one might actually be true. The Wikipedia article suggests a contemporary in 1987 (MathCAD) but I'm not seeing a Mathematica/Jupyter-style notebook interface before that year. That would seem to have been the year of the notebook interface, and Mathematica 1.0 did come out that ye…

Even if true it's unnecessary. I just can't read anything written by Wolfram without rolling my eyes

Re: Chat Notebooks

#15

Post by jjoonathan »

paulgb wrote: post #13
DigiDigiorno wrote: post #5

While I think his notebooks and features look pretty useful, he frames the article around having invented "notebooks" 36 years ago before anyone else, and talks about other notebooks not having features that they've had since 1987. This is a pretty odd context to basically describe a new chat feature. Is this a record that should be set straight? I've used Jupyter since it was IPython notebook, but I don't think that…

> I've used Jupyter since it was IPython notebook, but I don't think that community claims to be the first coming of notebooks. My recollection (which could be wrong, it's been a while) is that SageMath’s notebook preceeded iPython notebooks. IIRC iPython started as a CLI repl, which may have come before the notebook. (Mathematica came before all of them, and likely inspired SageMath’s interface)

Speaking of which, has anyone made an open source pretty printed input interface for sage or do I have to keep flogging my old Mathematica 7 license for a few more years?

Re: Chat Notebooks

#16

Post by abecedarius »

burkaman wrote: post #8
DigiDigiorno wrote: post #5

While I think his notebooks and features look pretty useful, he frames the article around having invented "notebooks" 36 years ago before anyone else, and talks about other notebooks not having features that they've had since 1987. This is a pretty odd context to basically describe a new chat feature. Is this a record that should be set straight? I've used Jupyter since it was IPython notebook, but I don't think that…

Seems like it's debatable depending on your definition of "notebook": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notebook_interface#History But also, even if it's true, it's kind of an offputting way to start the article. I know that's his thing and I know it's discussed every time one of these is posted here so apologies for the repetitive observation.

That wiki page says

> According to Stephen Wolfram: "The idea of a notebook is to have an interactive document that freely mixes code, results, graphics, text and everything else.

By that description Smalltalk with its workspace goes back to the 70s. (I don't know if there's anything closer to the Mathematica notebooks from that era.)

Re: Chat Notebooks

#17

Post by vineyardmike »

neosat wrote: post #4

Neat idea, but some of it is made out to be unnecessarily complex and esoteric. E.g. giving it your name, and now it becomes 'aware' of your name. I guess in normal programming that would be like saying once you declare your variable the program is 'aware' of it. It's not wrong to say that, but unnecessarily makes it more complicated. The tacking of multiple such instances makes the overall post more complicated than…

They explain why this is different (and more complicated) - emphasis added:

> Thus, for example, if you evaluate x = 5 in an input cell, then subsequently ask for the value of x, the result will be 5 wherever in the notebook you ask—even if it’s above the “x = 5” cell

And

> successive chat cells are “aware” of what’s in cells above them. But even if we add it later, a cell placed at the top won’t “know about” anything in cells below it.

Surely this is because the OpenAI api is chat based and they need to evaluate that chat in-order. it does seem like an inconvenient interface for programmatic LLM generators if you don’t want a chat UX.

Re: Chat Notebooks

#18

Post by Frost1x »

stabbles wrote: post #14
electroly wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the predecessor with a notebook interface from before 1987? I'm not aware of one. Wolfram loves to claim he invented stuff but this one might actually be true. The Wikipedia article suggests a contemporary in 1987 (MathCAD) but I'm not seeing a Mathematica/Jupyter-style notebook interface before that year. That would seem to have been the year of the notebook interface, and Mathematica 1.0 did come out that ye…

Even if true it's unnecessary. I just can't read anything written by Wolfram without rolling my eyes

Of course it's unnecessary, but I suspect there's at least some substance to this claim. If it were anyone else, a harmless plug like this would be accepted by most, might even be an interesting nugget a reader would appreciate. The issue is the style of claim (being the originator) is dropped far more than it should be.

I'm personally a fan of many ideas Wolfram pushes, just not a fan of the style they're pushed. I'd say I'm not in the minority, to the point it's a tired cliche.

Re: Chat Notebooks

#19

Post by nmstoker »

stabbles wrote: post #14
electroly wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the predecessor with a notebook interface from before 1987? I'm not aware of one. Wolfram loves to claim he invented stuff but this one might actually be true. The Wikipedia article suggests a contemporary in 1987 (MathCAD) but I'm not seeing a Mathematica/Jupyter-style notebook interface before that year. That would seem to have been the year of the notebook interface, and Mathematica 1.0 did come out that ye…

Even if true it's unnecessary. I just can't read anything written by Wolfram without rolling my eyes

Likewise. Especially when it's liberally sprinkled with his catch phrase: "A new kind of..."

It's unfortunate as clearly he has a huge amount to contribute. Maybe with an LLM someone can build a de-Stepheniser that takes in his pompous, smug text and outputs something more mellow and reasonable whilst keeping all the facts, which is what we are there for after all.

Re: Chat Notebooks

#20

Post by [deleted] »

akiselev wrote: post #7
DigiDigiorno wrote: post #5

While I think his notebooks and features look pretty useful, he frames the article around having invented "notebooks" 36 years ago before anyone else, and talks about other notebooks not having features that they've had since 1987. This is a pretty odd context to basically describe a new chat feature. Is this a record that should be set straight? I've used Jupyter since it was IPython notebook, but I don't think that…

> Is this a record that should be set straight? It's Wolfram. If they didn't claim to invent something fundamental in the first paragraph, I'd immediately assume the site was hacked or it's a poorly timed April fools joke written by an intern.

[deleted]
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