Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews • Hacker News Board

Re: Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews

#291

Post by mrguyorama » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 2:19 PM UTC

defrost wrote: post #202

simonswords82 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So glad you mentioned committing badge swiping fraud. I was going to ask on an original thread, what is to stop people simply swiping other people in on their badge to pretend that they're in the office more than they actually are?

On a large tech campus you might expect * Cameras recording faces near badge swipe points, and | or * Campus wide mobile phone services that also log SIM cards and other locale data. You can imagine some data analyst being tasked with trawling logs to look for inconsistancies. There are, of course, other meta data logs and sources that could be used.

Or the very simple human intelligence factor: "It says you swiped your badge every day this week but nobody seems to remember seeing you around the office"

Re: Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews

#292

Post by ska » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 2:21 PM UTC

no_wizard wrote: post #262

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are more conditions that pertain Remote Work is better if 1. You do not have home problems that you will end up focusing on when you are there - so if you are single and do not own your home, or you have a great relationship and you do own your home but there are no problems the remote work is probably better. But just like being in an office and going into a private room can help productivity if you have probl…

Why does it have to be because some want to go in an office so we all do? If you want to work in an office go work in one. Join a co-working space or if there is sufficient momentum have everyone who wants an office join the same one in your area. But don’t force it on everyone. Let people choose. That’s the thing I hate about these conversations is it should just be personal choice for the individual. Make async pra…

That argument works the other way around too, either way you are asking others to accommodate your preference.

I think “let people choose” is the right idea at the “choose your job” or sometimes “choose your team” level.

Re: Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews

#293

Post by BlargMcLarg » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 2:22 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #287

extr wrote: post #20

After going back and forth between in-person and remote jobs, my conclusion: * Remote work is much better if you know what you're building and "just" need to execute. * In-person is much better if you don't know what you need to build, are trying to "figure it out as you go along", and are relying on the implicit fast feedback loop of standing next to each other. Obvious, right? But I think what I've realize is the d…

Seniority is another factor. People who have been in the industry and with a company for a long time largely have a network and don't really have problems connecting with people. (And at larger companies that network is often pretty distributed anyway.) But the--admittedly not universal--consensus is that new folks struggle with onboarding and generally making progress in their careers. And even coming into an office…

A lot of that struggle has to do with what others point out already: the onboarding processes and documentation being of shoddy quality and relying on word-of-mouth to transfer knowledge and repeatedly check in.

If you start raising future generations to be, you know, adults, instead of mentally stunting them into being eternal teens well into their 30s, and companies make an effort not to have a horrible onboarding and rely on 3 year tenures (and paradoxically do nothing to keep said employees that long), the problem is far less prevalent. Heck, most CS students are expected to do far more complex things at school without any assistance these days.

Re: Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews

#294

Post by mrguyorama » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 2:25 PM UTC

barbazoo wrote: post #43

_tdd2 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's relatively well known that heads of people/whatever fancy name HR peeps come up with for themselves are generally sociopathic scumbags, so it's not surprising to me that this was the case.

There is just no way any of this is based on actual data.

Actually we have lots of data on sociopath and narcissistic tendencies in management. Management consistently scores higher in these negative personality traits.

Re: Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews

#295

Post by kodah » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 2:29 PM UTC

extr wrote: post #20

After going back and forth between in-person and remote jobs, my conclusion: * Remote work is much better if you know what you're building and "just" need to execute. * In-person is much better if you don't know what you need to build, are trying to "figure it out as you go along", and are relying on the implicit fast feedback loop of standing next to each other. Obvious, right? But I think what I've realize is the d…

Tech pays Industrial Psychologists, I don't know why we don't put them to work on this.

I restarted my software career doing remote work. I didn't have a problem finding things to do because my responsibilities were clear (read: I had a good manager) and I was self-taught so I already had a muscle for seeking knowledge on my own.

I suspect that remote work success is highly influenced by an equation involving how good your manager is and how much you innately know about what things your role is responsible for which can be propped up or replaced by seniority. I also suspect that new grads don't have muscles for finding/seeking internal and external information on their own, which feels powerless. There's ways to solve all these things without treating all of these folks the same.

Frankly, I think these are all the problems you and I relate to, but what's really solved for the business by returning to an office isn't productivity or happiness. It's a real estate problem.

Re: Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews

#296

Post by mrguyorama » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 2:29 PM UTC

wildrhythms wrote: post #208

saagarjha wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s because people just leave.

What happens when all the other companies are implementing the same policy...

This is why individual action is significantly weaker than collective bargaining.

Re: Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews

#297

Post by civilized » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 2:30 PM UTC

bluefirebrand wrote: post #223

72f988bf wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In-person is much better if you don't know what you need to build, are trying to "figure it out as you go along", and are relying on the implicit fast feedback loop of standing next to each other. true. > For large companies like FAANG, I actually think they mostly fall in bucket 2 Also true most fall in the "figure it out" bucket... But here's where it gets funny: just meet in-person you say? No, this is FAANG. Yo…

A lot of companies want the benefits of distributed teams, but also want to force everyone to come to offices and do conference calls in meeting rooms instead of work remote. It's mind boggling to me. All I can think is that there is a lot of ego tied up in offices for some reason.

This was the first thing I noticed when I started working about a decade ago. Endless conference calls while people extolled the benefits of in-person interaction which wasn't even happening. As a result, I now have a healthy amount of cynicism about advocacy of office work. I take ICs who favor it at face value when they say it works better for them, but clearly, many of the most vocal advocates in management don't even care if any of the supposed benefits are realized.

Re: Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews

#298

Post by programmertote » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 2:31 PM UTC

72f988bf wrote: post #94

extr wrote: post #20

After going back and forth between in-person and remote jobs, my conclusion: * Remote work is much better if you know what you're building and "just" need to execute. * In-person is much better if you don't know what you need to build, are trying to "figure it out as you go along", and are relying on the implicit fast feedback loop of standing next to each other. Obvious, right? But I think what I've realize is the d…

> In-person is much better if you don't know what you need to build, are trying to "figure it out as you go along", and are relying on the implicit fast feedback loop of standing next to each other. true. > For large companies like FAANG, I actually think they mostly fall in bucket 2 Also true most fall in the "figure it out" bucket... But here's where it gets funny: just meet in-person you say? No, this is FAANG. Yo…

Working for a FAANG right now and since RTO was mandated, I noticed that our team have been spending ~5 mins before the beginning of the meetings finding a room and setting up the audio/visual system for conference calls with other teammates across the country. This is for a company that has a lot of office space in its birth town and has HQs in a few other cities. A couple of teammates (out of 8 total) privately told me that they hate the RTO.

I personally prefer fully remote because I hate the distraction in the open office plan and associated pains like having to find meeting rooms, having to share restrooms with others (I admit this is just my personal pet peeve), and not being able to avoid distraction when I am in the zone for working. Most of all, I don't like the commute (I have to commute 1 hour each way, so everyday, I am spending 2 hours; when I worked from home, I started early and end up working an extra hour or two because I don't have to commute; these days, I try to arrive at 8-9am and leave by 5-6pm to beat the traffic and once I get home, I don't do any work). I consider quitting someday soon and am waiting for my wife to complete her training. Once she has done that, we will move to a place where she can find work, and I will quit my FAANG job for a fully-remote one (sure, my income will take a small hit, but quality of work life is more important for me).

Re: Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews

#299

Post by PKop » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 2:31 PM UTC

JamesLeonis wrote: post #270

bluefirebrand wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of companies want the benefits of distributed teams, but also want to force everyone to come to offices and do conference calls in meeting rooms instead of work remote. It's mind boggling to me. All I can think is that there is a lot of ego tied up in offices for some reason.

Wall Street is pressuring everybody for Return to Office to shore up their collapsing commercial real estate holdings.

Not just wall street. All of the governments, and thus their budgets, where this real estate resides are completely dependent on property taxes and the overall commerce in the area which will collapse if people (and then secondary small businesses) just simply aren't there anymore.

Re: Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews

#300

Post by spacemadness » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 2:31 PM UTC

LiquidSky wrote: post #264

rubicon33 wrote: post #253

Worked from home ~5 of my ~10 years in development. Obviously, the "pros" of WFH are massive. No commute. Comfortable office. Food in the fridge. Daytime exercise + showers. Etc. etc. I found however that too much of a good thing, is bad. For me, the lack of in person communication started to atrophy my enjoyment of life. I wouldn't have been able to really tell you it for the first few years, but I was slowly moving…

>For me, the lack of in person communication started to atrophy my enjoyment of life. I would suggest that it's possible to interact with people outside of work. It's genuinely sad to me how many of these "if I don't go into the office I have no one to interact with" posts I see.

This is so common on HN. I find it rather dystopian, as if we’ve all finally given our full selves to our corporate jobs and can’t piece our own lives together. I can feel the “but you’re at work 8 hours a day” commenter typing away as I type this, but the point is that all your social interaction doesn’t and shouldn’t come from your job regardless. That isn’t healthy.

People are often in a weird headspace at work too and a bit guarded. I don’t know why that as a social setting is inherently healthier than surrounding yourself with people outside work.