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Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

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Re: Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

#501

Post by coldpie »

lordfrito wrote: post #469

After everything that's happened in this space, the number of "true believers" I'm seeing here is astounding to me. After a decade of use the tech hasn't found many real world uses beyond gambling, drugs, confidence schemes, money laundering, tax evasion, and other financial criminality. This is 100% the community's fault, as they're the ones burning a lot of real world capital to build this stuff but have very littl…

> After everything that's happened in this space, the number of "true believers" I'm seeing here is astounding to me.

I think part of that appearance is the rest of us have just kinda moved on from commenting on this space. We've been saying "this crap is dumb" for ten years, it's getting old at this point. Let the true believers play around in their litter box; I got other stuff to do :)

Re: Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

#502

Post by rootusrootus »

logicchains wrote: post #478
lordfrito wrote: post #469

After everything that's happened in this space, the number of "true believers" I'm seeing here is astounding to me. After a decade of use the tech hasn't found many real world uses beyond gambling, drugs, confidence schemes, money laundering, tax evasion, and other financial criminality. This is 100% the community's fault, as they're the ones burning a lot of real world capital to build this stuff but have very littl…

>hasn't found many real world uses beyond gambling, drugs, confidence schemes, money laundering, tax evasion, and other financial criminality Lots of people believe the war on drugs is a stupid, counter-productive endeavour, and indeed empirically there's no evidence of its success. The value on crypto is absolutely in that it gives common people a means to "fight back" against the power of the state and it's never-e…

> The value on crypto is absolutely in that it gives common people a means to "fight back" against the power of the state and it's never-ending quest to control their private lives.

The cost of that bit of freedom being that it funnels all of their meager savings to the top of the pyramid, making a few very wealthy people even more so.

Re: Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

#503

Post by lordfrito »

treestander wrote: post #490
lordfrito wrote: post #469

After everything that's happened in this space, the number of "true believers" I'm seeing here is astounding to me. After a decade of use the tech hasn't found many real world uses beyond gambling, drugs, confidence schemes, money laundering, tax evasion, and other financial criminality. This is 100% the community's fault, as they're the ones burning a lot of real world capital to build this stuff but have very littl…

SVB just collapsed. Do you blame the fiat dollar for that?

No, I blame the executives at a poorly run bank.

SVB execs knew the risks of having too many long term low interest securities. The Fed repeatedly warned SVB about it's problems. SVB ignored internal recommendations until it was too late.

If this was a systemic "fiat dollar" problem then many more banks would be failing.

Re: Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

#504

Post by EscapeFromNY »

lordfrito wrote: post #494
EscapeFromNY wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of real world uses. - https://time.com/5486673/bitcoin-venezuela-authoritarian/ - https://coincodecap.com/danish-reporters-in-ukraine-buy-used... - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33644090 People from wealthy countries tend to reject the legitimacy of these uses because "my country is stable and could never have these problems", or "if buying food is illegal, you shouldn't buy food, you financia…

> As long as it's still helping people, we should keep building it. What if it's hurting more people than it's helping? Just seems like a handwavy way to ignore the scams, fraud and collateral damage. We're talking billions. If we want to spend capital to help people in other countries, there are better ways of doing so. I do not believe for one second that the people from rich countries spending money in this space…

If it's hurting more than it's helping, then we should probably get rid of it. But you'd need to bring some data proving as much. The attention grabbing headlines that linger in your memory are a biased sub-sample.

For bitcoin specifically, a notable crypto skeptic Igor Makarov determined[1]:

> illegal transactions, scams and gambling together make up less than 3% of volume

To me, 3% is an acceptable level. It's a lower percentage than the black market in many countries even.

The reasons people contribute to crypto projects are as diverse as the reasons people contribute to open source in general. Some people want to get rich overnight, others contribute as part of their day job so they can go home at 5pm, and others are genuinely altruistic, though you may not believe it. It's reductive to paint everyone with the same broad brush.

[1]: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3942181

Re: Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

#505

Post by rootusrootus »

lordfrito wrote: post #469

After everything that's happened in this space, the number of "true believers" I'm seeing here is astounding to me. After a decade of use the tech hasn't found many real world uses beyond gambling, drugs, confidence schemes, money laundering, tax evasion, and other financial criminality. This is 100% the community's fault, as they're the ones burning a lot of real world capital to build this stuff but have very littl…

> I don't understand how intelligent people can continue to believe this stuff is the future of finance.

I think you're overestimating average intelligence, and/or how well intelligence translates to common sense. Some of the craziest people I've ever met were absolutely brilliant. Still crazy.

Re: Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

#506

Post by Tuna-Fish »

prottog wrote: post #479
Tuna-Fish wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is only true if you trade in crypto that is a security. Notably, Bitcoin is not a security. But every stablecoin, or any other more complex system that is in some way related to something that exists in the real world is. So you could run a Bitcoin exchange, but if you add any of the new, complex stuff you will end up getting shut down by SEC.

> Bitcoin is not a security What makes you say that?

Security in the US is defined by the Howey test, and other jurisprudence. Bitcoin does not meet the definition any more than collectible trading cards do.

Any crypto that imply some kind of stake or ownership of something that exists outside of that instrument are securities. This includes all stablecoins, all defi, and probably plenty of other things I don't even know about. But pure currencies that are backed by nothing other than scarcity and other people's expectation about their value are not securities. They are either commodities or currencies. Which of the two they are is still unclear and will probably have to be litigated at some point, as this distinction has other tax and regulatory significance, but neither option gets SEC on your ass the way unregistered securities does.

This is in fact an argument against the usefulness of crypto/blockchains in general -- unlike some proponents claim, you really can't actually use tradable crypto to do anything interesting, like name resolution or whatever, because if you can freely buy and sell the tokens, as soon as you can do anything more interesting with them they probably become securities.

Re: Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

#507

Post by Tuna-Fish »

alexb_ wrote: post #472
Tuna-Fish wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is only true if you trade in crypto that is a security. Notably, Bitcoin is not a security. But every stablecoin, or any other more complex system that is in some way related to something that exists in the real world is. So you could run a Bitcoin exchange, but if you add any of the new, complex stuff you will end up getting shut down by SEC.

If Bitcoin looks like a security, acts like a security, trades like a security, is used by almost everyone as a security, then why are we pretending that it shouldn't be regulated like a security?

See my reply to your sibling comment. Bitcoin is not a security, because there is a legally well established definition of security and bitcoin does not meet it.

Re: Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

#508

Post by rib3ye »

lordfrito wrote: post #469

After everything that's happened in this space, the number of "true believers" I'm seeing here is astounding to me. After a decade of use the tech hasn't found many real world uses beyond gambling, drugs, confidence schemes, money laundering, tax evasion, and other financial criminality. This is 100% the community's fault, as they're the ones burning a lot of real world capital to build this stuff but have very littl…

Bitcoin is not just a technological play but also a political play.

Try explaining to someone why they are wrong about voting for and the reason becomes obvious.

Re: Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

#509

Post by progrus »

lordfrito wrote: post #469

After everything that's happened in this space, the number of "true believers" I'm seeing here is astounding to me. After a decade of use the tech hasn't found many real world uses beyond gambling, drugs, confidence schemes, money laundering, tax evasion, and other financial criminality. This is 100% the community's fault, as they're the ones burning a lot of real world capital to build this stuff but have very littl…

It’s the US empire collapsing, not Bitcoin.

Re: Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

#510

Post by pessimizer »

EscapeFromNY wrote: post #482
lordfrito wrote: post #469

After everything that's happened in this space, the number of "true believers" I'm seeing here is astounding to me. After a decade of use the tech hasn't found many real world uses beyond gambling, drugs, confidence schemes, money laundering, tax evasion, and other financial criminality. This is 100% the community's fault, as they're the ones burning a lot of real world capital to build this stuff but have very littl…

There are plenty of real world uses. - https://time.com/5486673/bitcoin-venezuela-authoritarian/ - https://coincodecap.com/danish-reporters-in-ukraine-buy-used... - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33644090 People from wealthy countries tend to reject the legitimacy of these uses because "my country is stable and could never have these problems", or "if buying food is illegal, you shouldn't buy food, you financia…

This is the same use: evading local laws. You just think it's good when it's a government you don't like.
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