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Web Apps on macOS Sonoma 14 Beta

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Re: Web Apps on macOS Sonoma 14 Beta

#31
post #14
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But your "a browser" is different for other people, which one do you expect devs to target?

I expect they to do the same I have been doing since 1996 for Web projects, Web standards, and do the needful to make it work across browsers. Alternatively, do what I have been doing since 1990, middleware for business logic with native UI integration. The four preceding years don't count, as I was using only Timex 2068 as my single computer.

The 90-s have very little to show for, especially in the area of Web projects and standards, the testament of the failure of the latter is precisely the required scale of "the needful"

Re: Web Apps on macOS Sonoma 14 Beta

#33

The slow death of Electron & Co? Electron apps like Discord, Slack, etc. don't seem to gain any benefit from being wrapped in Electron anymore. Have one codebase, one app, that works everywhere and can now even be "installed" with Safari.

You're probably right with regard to Slack, Discord. However, some Electron apps require access to the filesystem or other APIs that these installed web pages wont't support (as far as I know). FS access is listed as a wishlist item in the article. Electron still has a lot going for it if you need access to system APIs or you want it to be cross platform.

The manifest.json spec supports declaring “file_handlers” mapped to a URL action. Only supported in Chrome and Edge at the moment. The action URL could be handled by the service worker, so there’s no need for files to be sent over the network if all the processing can happen offline.

Re: Web Apps on macOS Sonoma 14 Beta

#34
I am unreasonably excited about Safari PWAs on macOS. This is a very good start.

Some of my favorite details from the article:

> Different from iOS/iPadOS, credentials in cookies are copied over, so if you were logged in when running in the tab, you're logged in when you launch the app. No other storage means apart from cookies are copied.

> Same-origin (or in-scope if a manifest exists) links are handled in-app, cross-origin (or out-of-scope if a manifest exists) links open in the default browser. A notable exception are OAuth flow links, which are handled in-app based on a heuristic.

> Web apps run in the context of a separate process called `Web App.app`. Separating Safari and Web App allows both to run independently. You can open a Web app without opening Safari, you can close Safari without all web apps closing.

Buuutt... FileSystem API is not supported yet. Nor is drag-and-drop or LaunchHandler (open a specific file type with the web app). If we had those features, we could get back to storing and editing files on disk, using web apps, which would be a huge improvement for local-first apps.

Re: Web Apps on macOS Sonoma 14 Beta

#35

Can Web Apps use tabs? As in, if I command click a link, will it open in a native tab in the Web App? If they can't, then a bunch of apps I want to use as web apps will have to stay within the main browser unfortunately.

Having tabs would just make it a browser. Your description leads me to believe you want a browser anyways, not a single app experience whatsoever.

Um am I not understanding what "Web App" means?

"A web application (or web app) is application software that is accessed using a web browser. Web applications are delivered on the World Wide Web to users with an active network connection."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_application

Re: Web Apps on macOS Sonoma 14 Beta

#37

Can Web Apps use tabs? As in, if I command click a link, will it open in a native tab in the Web App? If they can't, then a bunch of apps I want to use as web apps will have to stay within the main browser unfortunately.

Yeah I think this has held/will hold up adoption. Of course web apps can implement their own tab UIs like native apps do, but many don't because they figure you already have tabs in your browser

Chicken and egg

Re: Web Apps on macOS Sonoma 14 Beta

#38

Can Web Apps use tabs? As in, if I command click a link, will it open in a native tab in the Web App? If they can't, then a bunch of apps I want to use as web apps will have to stay within the main browser unfortunately.

Having tabs would just make it a browser. Your description leads me to believe you want a browser anyways, not a single app experience whatsoever.

It seems weird to have to point this out, but there are many apps that have tabs that are not web browsers.

Any sort of document-based app benefits tremendously from tabs, and thus it would be unfortunate to have to lose that feature when making it a Web App. I for example often need a couple Google Docs open at once. I would very much like to have Google Docs as a separate item in my Dock though. However, I don't want to be forced to have each individual Google Document in a separate window like it's Mac OS 9 just because it's a "Web App".

Or for example Airtable. I have a few Airtables that I basically always have open. I currently have them "pinned" just because if not they become impossible to find in the sea of other windows and tabs in my browser. I would love to command-tab to Airtable and bring these up, but not have them in an overlapping mess of windows.

Another great example is social media "Web Apps" (like Elk for Mastodon), which basically get "stacks" for free by leveraging tabs. Instead of the Elk team having to develop an "internal tabbing" feature, I can just have a tab for each hashtag I am following. But this does not mean that I want all these tabs mixed in with random other unrelated websites.

Literally any app (vs. "page") that uses multiple windows that you would personally prefer to group into tabs is a good candidate. Tabs are a window organizational tool, they have no inherent "webness" to them aside from that being the first place they originated. macOS's AppKit framework has built-in support for automatically making document-based apps support tabs with zero additional programming. I assure you this feature wasn't added in to allow anyone to write a web browser. In fact, I think the opposite of your assertion is true: the more like an "app" the thing you're turning into a Web App is, the more likely it is to use multiple windows, and thus the more it can benefit from tabs. I agree that if you are for some strange reason turning a blog into a Web App, then tabs don't make any sense, but it also doesn't make sense to turn it into a Web App.

Re: Web Apps on macOS Sonoma 14 Beta

#39
post #36

Any reason you can think of that local storage gets ignored while cookies are maintained?

LocalStorage may include application state that is irrelevant/incompatible with the PWA version of the page(?).

For session authentication a http secure cookie has long been the best practice for anyway, which is now marginally underlined even more so.

Re: Web Apps on macOS Sonoma 14 Beta

#40
post #7

I would love to be able to ship apps in this, with a code bundle, so we don't need to ship a full Electron engine for every app. Even better, I wish someone would standardise it so we could still write one, ship to all platforms.

There’s that Tauri project that is pretty close to exactly this. It’s Rust code using a browser UI layer, but unlike Electron, it uses the native Web control for the platform. That way you don’t ship the browser portion, just your business logic and UI experience.

You’ll have some cross browser issues but save on footprint.

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