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Notes on Vision Pro

notes.andymatuschak.org

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Re: Notes on Vision Pro

#661

Post by mavhc »

CPLX wrote: post #501
jstanley wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're taking a backwards-looking view of this. Imagine if ancient man, living in the woods, saw people of today living in cities. "It feels very uncomfortable seeing all of these people isolating themselves inside buildings". In fact the very opposite is the case. Now, we go into nature to isolate ourselves. In the future, going into virtual reality will be where you go to interact with others, and you'll take the g…

> people normally respond with an implicit assumption that the technology is not good enough Because it's not good enough and there's no real plausible means by which it will be good enough. I mean this was a core argument in the Matrix, and many agreed that it wasn't worth doing even when the virtual reality was absolutely flawless and a land of limitless bounty. And there's no tech in progress that has a path to th…

We're hanging out with friends in foreign countries for free right now on this website, many people have friends they only communicate with via text, and some only with voice, and others with video, and others physically

Re: Notes on Vision Pro

#662

Post by 5350-uiop-1130 »

jstanley wrote: post #494
jb1991 wrote: post #315

I use quite a few Apple products every day of the last 10 years, and I’m very impressed with certainly all the technology and reviews and explanations of how this device works and what the user experience will be. However, this is the first Apple device that really makes me pause. All of the marketing material, the WWDC videos, all of it feels very uncomfortable to see all these people isolating themselves in a room…

You're taking a backwards-looking view of this. Imagine if ancient man, living in the woods, saw people of today living in cities. "It feels very uncomfortable seeing all of these people isolating themselves inside buildings". In fact the very opposite is the case. Now, we go into nature to isolate ourselves. In the future, going into virtual reality will be where you go to interact with others, and you'll take the g…

the mental gymnastics people are using to justify dropping $3500 on this is amazing

Re: Notes on Vision Pro

#663

Post by mewpmewp2 »

alexvoda wrote: post #624
mewpmewp2 wrote: post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not looking far enough ahead. In the future people will be in their pods, only connected within virtual reality and everything will feel as if it was real. This allows for much more optimal space and resources management.

There is no guaranteed path for the future. Humanity makes the future it will live in. So I am just looking ahead in a different direction from you. I find it hard to not throw a plethora of insults at you for the vision you endorsed. The Matrix was not an instruction manual, it was a warning. Why do you want that to be the future?

In the future it won't be possible to have a life as it is like now and it's only possible in virtual realities. The scenarios that are normal and natural for people can only be offered in those pods.

You might not even be able to tell any difference when you are in a pod. In fact you could be in the pod right this very moment and you could be the main player where all scenarios are created and catered specifically for you to throw various challenges at you which might feel stressful, but you'll be able to surmount them. These scenarios give meaning to your life.

Re: Notes on Vision Pro

#664

Post by lm28469 »

brookst wrote: post #487
lm28469 wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> however when was the last time you walked into a room where at least one person wasn't solely focused on their phone. Do we want more of that ?

Does it matter what “we” want? If you want to use your phone less, use your phone less. Complaining about how other people use their phones “too much” is just kids-these-days.

Does that work for free access heroin too ? Military grade weapons ? Driving under influence ?

There is a reason we live in organised societies, with rules and limitations, and it's not so that you can do "whatever you want whenever you want"

At some point we have to decide where we want to steer the ship

Re: Notes on Vision Pro

#665

Post by blueprint »

unusualmonkey wrote: post #647
alexvoda wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, people still go to concerts and will not stop anytime soon. Even if people enjoy music in a variety of ways, people very much still enjoy live music for being live. So it is a bad counter example. Secondly, all of the examples above were examples of trying to avoid reality. A pathological form of escapism. Why push so hard for such a shitty future where escapism is the only option? Black Mirror is a war…

> Secondly, all of the examples above were examples of trying to avoid reality. 1) What makes reality important? 2) What is the definition of reality? > In all VR spaces you will absolutely be the product while also being milked for every single micro-transaction you can pay. How does that differ from reality? Are you not paying for the walls that are presumably around you right now?

the answer is "the law of cause and effect" and "the problems"

Re: Notes on Vision Pro

#666

Post by theonlybutlet »

jb1991 wrote: post #315

I use quite a few Apple products every day of the last 10 years, and I’m very impressed with certainly all the technology and reviews and explanations of how this device works and what the user experience will be. However, this is the first Apple device that really makes me pause. All of the marketing material, the WWDC videos, all of it feels very uncomfortable to see all these people isolating themselves in a room…

Honestly you could replace everything you said there with an iPhone and it'd still apply.

Re: Notes on Vision Pro

#667

Post by alexvoda »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #663
alexvoda wrote: post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no guaranteed path for the future. Humanity makes the future it will live in. So I am just looking ahead in a different direction from you. I find it hard to not throw a plethora of insults at you for the vision you endorsed. The Matrix was not an instruction manual, it was a warning. Why do you want that to be the future?

In the future it won't be possible to have a life as it is like now and it's only possible in virtual realities. The scenarios that are normal and natural for people can only be offered in those pods. You might not even be able to tell any difference when you are in a pod. In fact you could be in the pod right this very moment and you could be the main player where all scenarios are created and catered specifically f…

As I expected you do not want to engage in actual dialogue and answer the question I asked. You are just posturing that it is inevitable and therefore do not want to answer why you favour this dystopia to the detriment of any other possible future.

Moreover you are also steering this towards the simulation hypothesis which is a dead end for a debate.

I will no longer entertain this charade.

Re: Notes on Vision Pro

#668

Post by anonomousename »

alexvoda wrote: post #658
moi2388 wrote: post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I don’t know about you, but if I want a free app to change my wallpaper and there isn’t one I’ll just write one. It’s totally a choice to pay.

Talking about wallpapers is derailing the conversation. The point was that just as we see the social networks of today and the games of today getting enshitified so will every VR experience get enshitified. As for writing it yourself, care to talk about the price of the developer account, the approval process, the risk of getting banned, the ever changing API surface, the time you use for all of this, etc. etc.? You…

Your app does not need to get approved if you are the only one using it - in fact you don’t even need to have a developer account if you’re the only one using it and are ok resigning the app occasionally.

With regards to enshittification: all the examples listed were software companies or service companies. I don’t see any hardware companies on there, and I’d go so far as to say hardware companies that sell with high margins do not undergo enshittification. From the article: “… they abuse their users to make things better for their business customers …” Apple doesn’t have business customers. Their core business strategy is not to sell ads, or data, but rather hardware.

Re: Notes on Vision Pro

#669

Post by simonh »

jstanley wrote: post #494
jb1991 wrote: post #315

I use quite a few Apple products every day of the last 10 years, and I’m very impressed with certainly all the technology and reviews and explanations of how this device works and what the user experience will be. However, this is the first Apple device that really makes me pause. All of the marketing material, the WWDC videos, all of it feels very uncomfortable to see all these people isolating themselves in a room…

You're taking a backwards-looking view of this. Imagine if ancient man, living in the woods, saw people of today living in cities. "It feels very uncomfortable seeing all of these people isolating themselves inside buildings". In fact the very opposite is the case. Now, we go into nature to isolate ourselves. In the future, going into virtual reality will be where you go to interact with others, and you'll take the g…

>Imagine if ancient man, living in the woods, saw people of today living in cities. "It feels very uncomfortable seeing all of these people isolating themselves inside buildings".

A city is literally millions of people all wanting to live in the same place to be close to other people. I couldn't wait to move from the countryside to a city in order to be near more people like myself.

Communications technology is great, it helps me connect with even more people with common interests, as right now, and with my family while we are apart. It is in no way shape or form a substitute for being physically with people. There's something primally satisfying and emotionally anchoring about actually being together. That's why online discussions can so easily escalate into verbal knife fights and abuse. It's emotionally disconnected and I suspect the same will be true of VR.

Re: Notes on Vision Pro

#670

Post by alexvoda »

anonomousename wrote: post #668
alexvoda wrote: post #658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talking about wallpapers is derailing the conversation. The point was that just as we see the social networks of today and the games of today getting enshitified so will every VR experience get enshitified. As for writing it yourself, care to talk about the price of the developer account, the approval process, the risk of getting banned, the ever changing API surface, the time you use for all of this, etc. etc.? You…

Your app does not need to get approved if you are the only one using it - in fact you don’t even need to have a developer account if you’re the only one using it and are ok resigning the app occasionally. With regards to enshittification: all the examples listed were software companies or service companies. I don’t see any hardware companies on there, and I’d go so far as to say hardware companies that sell with high…

Your first paragraph misses the point. The argument was not about the current rules of any current platform. It was about the potential for abuse on future VR/AR platforms by platform owners. The platform owners are the rule makers and can change the rules at any point. Others platforms like the gaming consoles are proof the rules can be a lot tighter.

Apple is in no way excluded from enshitification.

Apple refusing to support more than one external monitor on non-Pro or non-Max M* laptops is an example in hardware by virtue of being intentional market segmentation.

On the software side, ads are slowly encroaching previously ad-free spaces on Apple software too. Apple is also a services company providing everything from an ads platform to apps marketplaces to media to payment services to banking services and leveraging their position in anticompetitive ways. It's platforms are subject to the same pressures of enshitification.

The part you quoted is just one of the steps. The strategy for a platform is to act as an indispensable middleman and abuse everyone both upstream and downstream.

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