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Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

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Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#201
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I think you are learning it wrong." Well, of course I did. I used a keyboard for many years before my formal middle school typing class and by then it was too late. My brain already knew better and typing exercises did no good because I already knew how to use the keyboard without looking. I imagine this is the dominant case. If you want to fix it, I recommend simply learning a sensible layout for touch typing. You…

> You also would not have needed such a class if the keyboard was laid out in Dvorak for everybody you seriously believe, without any doubt, that with a clearly labelled dvorak keyboard and no typing lessons you would not have learned to hunt-and-peck at increasingly higher speeds as you did with QWERTY, but instead put your fingers "on the home row" and used your pinkies? At a young age, we all learn the alphabet, a…

"you seriously believe, without any doubt, that with a clearly labelled dvorak keyboard and no typing lessons you would not have learned to hunt-and-peck at increasingly higher speeds as you did with QWERTY, but instead put your fingers "on the home row" and used your pinkies?"

Yes.

Before I further argue with you, a simple question. I've learned Dvorak and been using it for years. Have you tried anything other than QWERTY for long enough to learn it? I am a hunt and peck QWERTY user and I touch type Dvorak. I've spent WAY more time formally trying to touch type QWERTY; I spent basically zero with Dvorak. (Obviously a lot of time to learn the layout. But I made zero extra effort to "touch type".)

What you believe to be a fundamental aspect of typing may be merely an accident of a keyboard layout that penalizes "proper" typing. To type "properly" with QWERTY takes work. To hunt and peck with Dvorak would take equal work, if not more. It is not natural with Dvorak. Why would your hands leave the home row? Only when the keys mean something other than letters entirely, like a WASD game.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#202
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably the best thing about Dvorak (and similar layouts) is that if you want to do proper touch typing, it is quite possibly easier to learn Dvorak than to learn how to touch type QWERTY. Touch typing QWERTY is a constant uphill battle of using your willpower to force yourself to type correctly, despite the rest of your brain claiming it isn't the optimal way to type on that layout. I don't know that your brain is…

This sounds very alluring but having to deal with setting up VIM in every environment or going to a new environment with VIM not set up sounds so painful. I imagine the native VIM bindings would be atrociously positioned in DVORAK

It's been years since I last used Vim (happy Emacs user now), but I don't see much of an issue, j and k are still next to each other and for moving in a line f, F, t, and T are nicer. Also solidus, of course.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#203

As a dvorak user, whatever increase in typing speed is mostly irrelevant, for most of us, our output isn't limited by how fast we can type, but how fast we can think. That being said, a long time ago I took an analysis of one of our code bases, mapped every character onto dvorak and qwerty keyboards to produce heatmaps, and it's startling how much less the fingers have to move on a dvorak keyboard. So if you're lazy,…

I moved to dvorak to help with my RSI. I don't know if it actually helped (it's been decades since I used QWERTY on a keyboard for more than a minute), but typing speed was irrelevant to me.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#205
I learnt Dvorak in 2 weeks and got back to my hunt-and-peck QWERTY speed within a month, within 2 I was typing 60-70WPM without effort, and about 90% accuracy. I did this with no formal training and my only motivation was that at that time I couldn't afford an "ergonomic keyboard" and had heard that Dvorak was better, so I gave it a try. It's also an ANSI standard so I didn't have to install any weird software, just choose it in the operating system settings.

I no longer have shooting pains up my arms. Whether that's a result of the ergonomics of Dvorak, or simply that I can touch type, is not something I'm qualified to answer, but what I can say is that:

- Dvorak is easy to learn

- only takes mild motivation to get good at

- is more comfortable

which leads to better typing habits that are good for you physically and make you a faster typist than hunt-and-peck, with less effort than learning to touch type on QWERTY.

Would I learn Dvorak these days over another layout like Colemak or whatever is the favorite today? Yes, I would, because it's a standard. I think we're at diminishing returns (for English) so it doesn't really matter: anything is better than QWERTY, even ABCDE...

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#206
post #197

I am generally very efficiency-minded (I run a speed-reading startup!), but I have never even felt the urge to try an alternate layout. Has anyone else who initially resisted these given it a try, and how long did it take you to figure out if it was amazing, or meh?

Do you mean that you run a speed reading startup or really a speed-reading startup?

Hopefully both: https://www.beelinereader.com

Some people use our tools for speed reading; others use it as an assistive technology for reading, or for helping kids learn to read.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#207

Obv it would be helpful/nice/cool to have reconfigurable keycaps, where the keycap's legend (LED-enhanced) could display whatever character you choose. Each key glowing in conformance with your current keyboard layout of choice. The last time I searched around for something like this, all I could find was some guy in Russia who had hacked up a positively brilliant-looking homebrew keyboard.

Never used it, but there's https://www.nemeio.com/ With the right software, you could even "improve" the layout on a daily basis based on the most used keys the previous day.

Looks sleek! No pricing. Sign me up anyways.

Ready for APL, music, IPA, Linear B, ...

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#208

As a dvorak user, whatever increase in typing speed is mostly irrelevant, for most of us, our output isn't limited by how fast we can type, but how fast we can think. That being said, a long time ago I took an analysis of one of our code bases, mapped every character onto dvorak and qwerty keyboards to produce heatmaps, and it's startling how much less the fingers have to move on a dvorak keyboard. So if you're lazy,…

I've long fantasized about switching to Dvorak just to confuse people who want to use my computer.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#209
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is immense value to being able to walk up to any computer, change the keyboard setting and being productive.

It's my lone complaint with Colemak is that Windows still doesn't include it out-of-the-box and needs it to be admin-installed from an MSI bundle that needs to be downloaded (or copied from a thumb drive). Every other modern OS includes it today (including iOS).

That's the exact reason why I chose Dvorak over Colemak a decade or so ago. Sad to see that this hasn't been fixed yet.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#210

As a dvorak user, whatever increase in typing speed is mostly irrelevant, for most of us, our output isn't limited by how fast we can type, but how fast we can think. That being said, a long time ago I took an analysis of one of our code bases, mapped every character onto dvorak and qwerty keyboards to produce heatmaps, and it's startling how much less the fingers have to move on a dvorak keyboard. So if you're lazy,…

I came to say this. It's not speed, it's comfort. I've been using Dvorak on my Kinesis Advantage since mid 90'es [1]. I don't actually think Dvorak is the best possible layout, but as the video points out, we are already in the realm of diminishing returns. [1] I still use Qwerty on non-Kinesis keyboards and this fact is enough for my muscle memory to eliminate any mental overhead of switching.

Long-time Dvorak user, and I 100% agree with this. Dvorak is much less taxing on your body.
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