Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014) • Hacker News Board

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#161

Post by martindbp » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 4:55 PM UTC

druidish wrote: post #157

martindbp wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> losing the Punic wars ostensibly Are you saying Carthage won after the city of Carthage ceased to exist? Me thinks you've watched one too many "well, ackchyually" youtube videos... Severus was emperor almost 400 years after the destruction of Carthage and you're saying that Rome "ostensibly" won. I mean, what.

Me thinks you’ve watched too many armchair historian videos, actually. Carthage didn’t “cease to exist” lol what, you think the land was actually “salted”? Carthage became one of the largest cities in the Roman Empire, then became the capital of the Vandal Kingdom who later sacked Rome, famously.

Salted or not, a city is made up of people, people who were either killed or enslaved. Rebuilt or not, it's not the same Carthage. And if you argue that an emperor from the region 400 years later somehow proves that Carthage didn't lose, you're not a serious person.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#162

Post by karaterobot » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 4:58 PM UTC

vintermann wrote: post #124

celtoid wrote: post #98

Child sacrifice was part of Semitic culture. The story of Issac and Jacob (Ishmael and Jacob in the Arab scriptures) teaching against the practice of child sacrifice is pretty good evidence that it was an old practice and that Hebrew and Arab cultures were trying to move on from it. Phoenicians, also Semitic, never moved on from the practice. I don't understand why it's so controversial.

I think you do understand why "our ancestors practiced child sacrifice" is controversial when you think about it

Well, either they did or they didn't. The confusion comes when we try to apply modern outlooks to people from a different civilization, and end up saying "well, I'd never do that, so neither would they," and we end up ignoring evidence that doesn't fit our preconception of the world.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#163

Post by druidish » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 4:59 PM UTC

csomar wrote: post #112

druidish wrote: post #106

More controversially, note that Phoenicia invented the alphabet, had the first maritime global trade empire, colonized Europe in the 13th century BC, and Punic dynasties eventually sat on the Roman throne despite losing the Punic wars ostensibly, with one such Severan emperor dismantling the Pantheon of Jupiter. You can also trace Byzantine dynasties back eastward and later empires too have this connection through dy…

> So those conspiracy theories claiming Jewish world domination are all rather quaint when you consider that Israel was just a backwater You realize Phoenicia and Israel are neighbors and two very small countries? The distance from Tel Aviv to Beirut is only 200Km. They are practically the same people except at some point in history they diverged in religion and became hostile to one another. Maybe if they kept sacri…

One was a global trade empire with colonies across the Mediterranean as far as present-day Gibraltar. The other was a desert backwater. The Temple of Solomon was built by the Tyrian king Hiram, Tyre and Sidon being the major cities of Phoenicia, or Canaan.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#164

Post by transducers » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 5:01 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #137

Was this for religious reasons, or for quality control?

Typically the gods did not look favorably on inferior product being placed on the alter. Even King Kong demands the hottest young babe in the tribe, does he not? Did anyone ever “sacrifice” hoary old men or women to gods? (Only in passage of kingship did humans ritually kille the elder males.)

So “religious” thinking would tend to demand something dear. This is inline with an inherent bug in human psyche — a false thought - that God wants something from us and is prone to making unreasonable demands from humanity.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#165

Post by druidish » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 5:01 PM UTC

martindbp wrote: post #161

druidish wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me thinks you’ve watched too many armchair historian videos, actually. Carthage didn’t “cease to exist” lol what, you think the land was actually “salted”? Carthage became one of the largest cities in the Roman Empire, then became the capital of the Vandal Kingdom who later sacked Rome, famously.

Salted or not, a city is made up of people, people who were either killed or enslaved. Rebuilt or not, it's not the same Carthage. And if you argue that an emperor from the region 400 years later somehow proves that Carthage didn't lose, you're not a serious person.

“Okay”

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#166

Post by pkphilip » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 5:02 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #137

Was this for religious reasons, or for quality control?

Religious. These were child sacrifices

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#167

Post by pkphilip » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 5:04 PM UTC

Child and human sacrifices were surprisingly common across the world. Many countries had to pass special laws to ban these practices - but it hasn't yet been rooted out.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#168

Post by oneshtein » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 5:05 PM UTC

amelius wrote: post #143

Which is more likely: ancient people sacificing their children, or ancient writers wanting to mess with future historians or simply writing horror?

[flagged]

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#169

Post by jeltz » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 5:08 PM UTC

vintermann wrote: post #124

celtoid wrote: post #98

Child sacrifice was part of Semitic culture. The story of Issac and Jacob (Ishmael and Jacob in the Arab scriptures) teaching against the practice of child sacrifice is pretty good evidence that it was an old practice and that Hebrew and Arab cultures were trying to move on from it. Phoenicians, also Semitic, never moved on from the practice. I don't understand why it's so controversial.

I think you do understand why "our ancestors practiced child sacrifice" is controversial when you think about it

Not really. My ancestors were Norse and practiced human sacrifice. There are also some archeological findings indicating that they also practiced child sacrifice. Doesn't bother me at all, I sm not my ancestors.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#170

Post by Ginden » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 5:08 PM UTC

amelius wrote: post #143

Which is more likely: ancient people sacificing their children, or ancient writers wanting to mess with future historians or simply writing horror?

History as social science was basically invented between 19th and 20th century. Ancient writers generally had agenda and they happily filled missing pieces with ideologically-fueled speculation.