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Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

ox.ac.uk

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Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#151

Post by handsaway »

thworp wrote: post #29
dumpsterdiver wrote: post #11

[flagged]

> It is interesting that civilizations have engaged in ritual sacrifice. The question is why? A few thoughts: - Sacrifice and civilization are closely related. To live in a society you have to sacrifice some autonomy, some of your (and your family's) goals and some resources. Further, to prepare for the future you have to make a sacrifice in the present. Many people even sacrifice their present selves for their futur…

We can safely add plenty of liberal democracies to that list if the criteria is "willing to cause the deaths of millions to realize their political project". At the very least Britain and the US.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#152

Post by aaomidi »

Eumenes wrote: post #150
aaomidi wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We sacrifice millions every year because we 1. Don’t want to change our reliance on cars 2. Don’t want to address hunger and houselessness. 3. We are doing basically nothing about global warming. A lot of countries COVID strategy was effectively human sacrifice too. This practice never ended.

Homeboy just compared human sacrifice to [current social justice talking points]. Most who died of covid were overweight, old, and had preexisting medical conditions related to lifestyle. They contributed to their own "sacrifice".

People who wonder how we justified sacrificing humans before. This is how.

We legitimately believed that sacrificing humans was helping prosperity, etc. We’re doing the same now with a few extra steps of indirection and abstraction.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#153

Post by Eumenes »

aaomidi wrote: post #152
Eumenes wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Homeboy just compared human sacrifice to [current social justice talking points]. Most who died of covid were overweight, old, and had preexisting medical conditions related to lifestyle. They contributed to their own "sacrifice".

People who wonder how we justified sacrificing humans before. This is how. We legitimately believed that sacrificing humans was helping prosperity, etc. We’re doing the same now with a few extra steps of indirection and abstraction.

Authoritative religious figures stealing baby from a mothers arm and the local shaman sacrificing it on an altar = same as driving a car. Hacker news is a RIOT.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#154

Post by martindbp »

druidish wrote: post #106

More controversially, note that Phoenicia invented the alphabet, had the first maritime global trade empire, colonized Europe in the 13th century BC, and Punic dynasties eventually sat on the Roman throne despite losing the Punic wars ostensibly, with one such Severan emperor dismantling the Pantheon of Jupiter. You can also trace Byzantine dynasties back eastward and later empires too have this connection through dy…

> losing the Punic wars ostensibly

Are you saying Carthage won after the city of Carthage ceased to exist? Me thinks you've watched one too many "well, ackchyually" youtube videos... Severus was emperor almost 400 years after the destruction of Carthage and you're saying that Rome "ostensibly" won. I mean, what.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#155

Post by Eumenes »

goda90 wrote: post #117

I want to make a plug for the Fall of Civilizations podcast. Last month was the Carthage episode. Here's the audio version(video version hasn't been released yet): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mqX9twdyYo

Dan Carlin has an excellent podcast on Carthage as well: https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-punic-nig...

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#156

Post by mjhay »

vintermann wrote: post #124
celtoid wrote: post #98

Child sacrifice was part of Semitic culture. The story of Issac and Jacob (Ishmael and Jacob in the Arab scriptures) teaching against the practice of child sacrifice is pretty good evidence that it was an old practice and that Hebrew and Arab cultures were trying to move on from it. Phoenicians, also Semitic, never moved on from the practice. I don't understand why it's so controversial.

I think you do understand why "our ancestors practiced child sacrifice" is controversial when you think about it

It is, but really human sacrifice was the norm, not the exception, in preclassical ancient societies.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#157

Post by druidish »

martindbp wrote: post #154
druidish wrote: post #106

More controversially, note that Phoenicia invented the alphabet, had the first maritime global trade empire, colonized Europe in the 13th century BC, and Punic dynasties eventually sat on the Roman throne despite losing the Punic wars ostensibly, with one such Severan emperor dismantling the Pantheon of Jupiter. You can also trace Byzantine dynasties back eastward and later empires too have this connection through dy…

> losing the Punic wars ostensibly Are you saying Carthage won after the city of Carthage ceased to exist? Me thinks you've watched one too many "well, ackchyually" youtube videos... Severus was emperor almost 400 years after the destruction of Carthage and you're saying that Rome "ostensibly" won. I mean, what.

Me thinks you’ve watched too many armchair historian videos, actually. Carthage didn’t “cease to exist” lol what, you think the land was actually “salted”? Carthage became one of the largest cities in the Roman Empire, then became the capital of the Vandal Kingdom who later sacked Rome, famously.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#158

Post by aaomidi »

Eumenes wrote: post #153
aaomidi wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who wonder how we justified sacrificing humans before. This is how. We legitimately believed that sacrificing humans was helping prosperity, etc. We’re doing the same now with a few extra steps of indirection and abstraction.

Authoritative religious figures stealing baby from a mothers arm and the local shaman sacrificing it on an altar = same as driving a car. Hacker news is a RIOT.

Wait until you realize that a lot of human sacrifice in the past had willing victims.

Willing being a bit of a stretch considering the entire society was conditioned to believe it was necessary.

Anyway, I’ll leave you with that and maybe you’ll go do some research on this topic.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#159

Post by Veen »

easytiger wrote: post #135
jgilias wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carthaginians were neither Roman nor Greek. In fact, for a long time it was assumed that Carthaginian child sacrifice practice was just Roman propaganda about their enemies. I fail to see how acknowledging that Berber ancestors likely practiced child sacrifice says anything about modern Western world. I mean, there was plenty of objectionable (by modern standards) behaviour practiced in both Rome and Ancient Greece t…

She has no more or less evidence than anyone previous when this was published. It's a directed attempt to create a history based entirely on speculation. The language treatment on the linked page screams it out > And the practice of child sacrifice could even hold the key to why the civilisation was founded in the first place. and > 'But in the 20th century, people increasingly took the view that this was racist prop…

You’re probably right, but nothing you’ve said will convince anyone that you are. If you want people to take your argument seriously, you have to do more than point out the author’s biases. You have to engage with her arguments and say why they are flawed.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#160

Post by dahfizz »

throw0101b wrote: post #71
gettodachoppa wrote: post #15

[flagged]

> My growing distrust of soft sciences […] The "soft sciences" are harder (more difficult) to do than the "hard" sciences in many ways. Less evidence just laying about just waiting to be tested (archaeology, ancient history), non-deterministic subjects (humans), not easily reproducible environments (society). Quantum mechanics has it easy in comparison. Is it any surprise that the consensus goes back and form a few t…

Just because its difficult doesn't mean we should take speculation and guesses as scientific fact. It's okay to say "we don't know, we'll probably never know for sure".

Especially because the stakes are so much lower. Ancient Carthage really does not matter. The ancient world is full of compelling stories, but ultimately they are just that. Whether Carthaginians sacrificed babies does not matter to the modern world at all.

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