Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014) • Hacker News Board

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#41

Post by lynx23 » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 10:10 AM UTC

boomboomsubban wrote: post #25

scns wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is impossible to understand the biblical narrative of the binding of Isaac Huh? It is quite easy to understand for me. Abraham and Sarah were childless and Sarah was infertile/too old DRC. Abraham prayed for an heir and miraculously Sarah gives life to Isaac. Yahwe demands Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, the most precious "thing" he has, to test his belief. Since Abraham does as he is told, a angel stops him from ki…

>Huh? It is quite easy to understand for me. Imagine if someone came up to you tomorrow and said "God talked to me and told me I also need to sacrifice my child." You'd assume they were crazy, hopefully to the point of calling the authorities. It's impossible to look at that story from a modern context and think Abraham's actions are remotely right or rational. Why would anyone trust a god who does that? But if child…

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Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#42

Post by Keysh » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 10:13 AM UTC

gattilorenz wrote: post #5

LatteLazy wrote: post #3

I am surprised this is a big deal, I thought it was well accepted. (Other) Phoenicians did it, Romans practised human (not sure about child) sacrifice and I thought the Carthaginians themselves recorded doing it? Humans are pretty crazy and we shouldn't pretend otherwise...

“Child abandonment was common in the ancient world, and human sacrifice is found in many historical societies, but child sacrifice is relatively uncommon” The whole article is about this not being well accepted by ancient authors nor by modern historians, that’s why it’s a big deal

No the article is about how child sacrifice by Carthaginians was widely accepted by ancient (Greek and Roman) authors, but has been doubted by (some) 20th Century historians and archeologists.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#43

Post by Eisenstein » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 10:19 AM UTC

lynx23 wrote: post #32

gettodachoppa wrote: post #15

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It is about time that we call out soft sciences for what they are. Pretty much a hoax and a way to escape real work when going to university. Two of my partners both have academic degrees in soft sciences, one even made it to a PhD. And both pretty much lack understanding of the scientiific process. This is horrifying, because society treats them as if they should know.

Plenty of engineers, MDs, and other people with credentials from a 'hard' science don't know the scientific process. Just because two people you know also fall into that category doesn't mean we have some sort crisis in academia.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#44

Post by harywilke » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 10:19 AM UTC

fastball wrote: post #35

tomohawk wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carthage was a Phoenician colony. The Phoenicians (Sidon, Tyre) were independently described by other cultures as having a national cult that sacrificed children. These descriptions are preserved in the Bible. The struggle with this cult was a significant formative experience of Judaism that lasted many generations.

Societies have also been known to completely fabricate horrible anecdotes about their neighbors / nemeses.

And about themselves to induce fear in their enemies. 'The Spartan Mirage' comes to mind.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#45

Post by 634636346 » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 10:21 AM UTC

gettodachoppa wrote: post #15

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As with the Carthaginians, it was also long-fashionable to downplay or even deny Mesoamerican human sacrifice, until the weight of the archeological evidence corroborating the scale of the Conquistadors' accounts became too great: https://www.science.org/content/article/feeding-gods-hundred...

> A lot of things are claimed by researchers in the soft sciences, and I take all of it with a grain of salt

The "soft sciences" have a strong left-wing bias in general (c.f. Haidt), and if anything, the tendency would be to want to downplay the atrocities perpetrated by non-whites, so your skepticism seems misdirected.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#46

Post by Keysh » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 10:21 AM UTC

lynx23 wrote: post #32

gettodachoppa wrote: post #15

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It is about time that we call out soft sciences for what they are. Pretty much a hoax and a way to escape real work when going to university. Two of my partners both have academic degrees in soft sciences, one even made it to a PhD. And both pretty much lack understanding of the scientiific process. This is horrifying, because society treats them as if they should know.

Quoting from the actual paper:

"As the relationships between scientific practice and social, archaeological and historical interpretations continue to be debated in the discipline at large (McGovern 1995; Jones 2001; Knapp 2002), it should perhaps not come as a surprise that we insist that it is critical that all types or ‘genres’ of evidence be taken into account in relation to the tophets as both a historical phenomenon and a series of archaeological contexts. We all have to work within the limits of our own expertise, whether as scientists, archaeologists, philologists or epigraphers, but we should also strive in the humanities as much as in the sciences to apply the highest standards of academic rigour, without preconceptions, in order to formulate falsifiable hypotheses and interpretations that take into account the full range of available sources—however strange we may find the results..."

I don't know, that sounds like a pretty good "understanding of the scientific process". (Admittedly, I'm just an astrophysicist, so maybe I don't understand "the scientific process".)

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#47

Post by Veen » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 10:26 AM UTC

easytiger wrote: post #36

Veen wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a fine skeptical attitude, but to put it into practice you'd have to be familiar with the relevant scholarship, read the paper, independently verify its arguments and claims, and come to an informed conclusion. You'd also have to be familiar with the standards of evidence used in the relevant fields, which aren't the same as the standards of evidence used in the hard sciences—they can't be because it's largely…

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It's usually to promote the academics, their paper, and their institutions. Is there a goal I am missing here?

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#48

Post by George83728 » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 10:26 AM UTC

gettodachoppa wrote: post #15

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Why do you think the Carthaginians didn't sacrifice children? One one hand you have various accounts from different people claiming they did; maybe they were all mistaken or lying or repeating rumors.. nothing solid but claims nonetheless. There's a little bit of archeological evidence to back it up too.

On the other hand you have... what? Are there any surviving ancient claims of the Carthaginians being wrongly slandered with this claim? What is your reason for assuming they did not? Innocent until proven guilty? It's not a court, and by that standard you might as well declare any infamous ancient person innocent since the hard evidence is long gone and none of the claimed witnesses can be cross examined. A modern court couldn't convict Genghis Khan of mass murder and war crimes in absentia, all the remaining evidence against that man is hearsay at best, but I don't think that's a reason to assume he was innocent.

Maybe it's an appeal to the fundamental goodness of human nature? That the Carthaginians are assumed to be innocent because what they're accused of goes against intrinsic human nature? Surely not; human nature includes the capacity for all manner of brutality; proven in the modern era.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#49

Post by dumpsterdiver » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 10:28 AM UTC

thworp wrote: post #29

dumpsterdiver wrote: post #11

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> It is interesting that civilizations have engaged in ritual sacrifice. The question is why? A few thoughts: - Sacrifice and civilization are closely related. To live in a society you have to sacrifice some autonomy, some of your (and your family's) goals and some resources. Further, to prepare for the future you have to make a sacrifice in the present. Many people even sacrifice their present selves for their futur…

It leaves a bad taste in my mouth bringing it back around to politics (I wish I lived in a world where I didn't have anything to say about it), but cancel culture has shown that people still love to gather 'round for a good old fashioned sacrifice.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#50

Post by Xylakant » Wed, Jun 07, 2023, 10:29 AM UTC

easytiger wrote: post #36

Veen wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a fine skeptical attitude, but to put it into practice you'd have to be familiar with the relevant scholarship, read the paper, independently verify its arguments and claims, and come to an informed conclusion. You'd also have to be familiar with the standards of evidence used in the relevant fields, which aren't the same as the standards of evidence used in the hard sciences—they can't be because it's largely…

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Science? That would be my first guess unless there's reason to suspect otherwise. The underlying paper was published in an academic journal with at least some history, so that speaks for the authors intend.

The fact that there's a press release about it stems from the need for marketing on the university side and it's correct to be skeptical, but I can't see any indication that they misrepresent the papers findings.