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OpenGL 3.1 on Asahi Linux

asahilinux.org

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Re: OpenGL 3.1 on Asahi Linux

#201

Post by lonjil »

GeekyBear wrote: post #155
vladvasiliu wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit different, though. I don't often need my iphone to last multiple days on end. Yet, if I keep it plugged in as often as I'm sitting at a desk, it'll never go below 80%. If I get it below 80%, sooner or later, it will figure "i want to use it" and will charge it all the way to 100%. The lowest my battery ever got on this phone was 40 something when I was away for a weekend without a charger. It's very rare I…

> It's a bit different, though. Yes. It learns your normal waking time (if you have one) and gives you a full charge before you wake up. Which is what I want. A full charge for the working day, without needlessly shortening the batteries functional lifetime.

My Sony Xperia 10 IV lets you set it to never charge above 90 or 80 %, as an alternative to it learning your habits. I have it set to 80%, and I've been unable to use it up in under 2 days. I've heard that iPhones have similarly good battery life as the 10 IV, so it seems, to me, that get quite far on 80%.

Re: OpenGL 3.1 on Asahi Linux

#202

Post by mfuzzey »

psanford wrote: post #81
imiric wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> at this point there is nothing lacking or unable to run Sure there is. You just haven't run into it yourself. Faster, cooler and more power efficient hardware is great. I just don't think that it makes up for depending on a small team of volunteers to resolve all hardware issues in an ecosystem hostile to OSS, which might break at any point Apple decides to do so. And the incompatibilities with ARM are not negligib…

> depending on a small team of volunteers to resolve all hardware issues in an ecosystem hostile to OSS, which might break at any point Apple decides to do so You are describing how most OSS software has been developed. I don't see how this is any different than early linux when no hardware manufacturers had any interest in supporting it. A lot of the work that the asahi team is doing is just fixing Arm issues in the…

>A lot of the work that the asahi team is doing is just fixing Arm issues in the linux kernel (and sadly user space)

While I don't have Apple hardware so haven't been closely following Asahi I dont't think that is true. Linux has supported Arm for years (more like decades) now. They've been doing excellent work on support for Apple specific hardware sure, generic Arm not so much since it was mostly done.

Re: OpenGL 3.1 on Asahi Linux

#203

Post by sliken »

tormeh wrote: post #49

Sorry, but what's the point? Why not just buy a Linux laptop and have everything work out of the box? Why are Linux enthusiasts putting so much effort into supporting hardware from companies that - at best - ignore Linux? This question is also valid for other manufacturers, btw, not just Apple. So much time wasted doing free labor for hardware companies that will just break your stuff with the next hardware iteration…

Apple makes good hardware and makes good engineering decisions. Sure other laptop makers have low end and high end options. But frustratingly often match apple on 50-75% of the features. Sure some have nice still aluminum bodies. Some have screens that match or beat apple's. Some have nice centered quality touchpads and keyboards. Some have great battery life. Some have great performance.

Very few match on all aspects. I'd tried a few and always had one terrible issue. Terrible battery life, lousy screen, and/or terrible touchpad. Apple does seem willing to make improvements without as much worry about backward compatibility. There are a few that match on everything I care about, but often cost more than the Apple.

People like to complain and mention byzantine purchase methods. Wait for a lenovo sale, buy the bare bones model, apply the discount code, then buy dimms and SSDs from random bargain basement sellers. Oh and buy the linux compatible wifi card and do surgery on your laptop to get wifi working after suspend.

MBA is pretty compelling mix of performance, size, cost, and battery life. Unlike any x86-64 laptop, you can pay $500 more or so and get double the memory bandwidth. Or another $500+ and double it again. Definitely makes the macs better any PC at some workloads. Sure some x86-64 with a nice discrete GPU is way faster ... when plugged in to wall power.

Re: OpenGL 3.1 on Asahi Linux

#204

Post by mfuzzey »

imiric wrote: post #186
psanford wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hardware manufacturers in the 90s were incentivized to support Linux to expand their customer base. That is not an accurate description of linux support by hardware manufactures from that time period. > Unsupported hardware in the 90s typically had a much larger customer base and group of hackers willing to spend time adding supporting for it. I also don't think this is generally correct. Have you looked at all the…

> Have you looked at all the random drivers in the linux kernel for niche hardware. A ton of that is from one or two hobbyists taking the time to add support. Sure, for _niche_ hardware. When was the last time a GPU driver was added by reverse engineering it? The single Nouveau maintainer was burnt out, last I heard, and the project was never a serious alternative to NVIDIA's closed driver. Kudos to whoever found the…

>When was the last time a GPU driver was added by reverse engineering it

Freedreno (for the Adreno family) Etnaviv (for the Vivante family) Panfrost / Bifrost (for Mali)

All these RE efforts built on each other, although the GPUs are different the tools built to do the RE were shared (and I think ashai is benefiting too).

AFAIK Google has now hired Rob Clark the Freedreno maintainer who started all this to work on Freedreno for Android / ChromeOS

Upstream Linux now has pretty good GPU support for all the major mobile GPUs these days. The hold out has been PowerVR but they are now working on an official (not reverse engineered) driver.

Re: OpenGL 3.1 on Asahi Linux

#205

Post by mfuzzey »

psanford wrote: post #188
2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in an ecosystem hostile to OSS > You are describing how most OSS software has been developed. Nope. Disagree here

Cool, thats a different claim than what you said above but at least one I can actually engage with. I've run linux on many Dell and Lenovo systems over the last 25 years. Most of those systems were fully unsupported by the manufactures for anything but windows. And yet, random people on the internet contributed to make that hardware (mostly) work. I've not seen any particular improvement in the driver situation since…

Absolutely. A large part of the reason is that in the OSS world the architecture is optimised to make as much as possible common between drivers for different hardware.

For example for GPU drivers Mesa has tons of common code (NIR, GLSL parser etc) that is shared by all drivers with just the hardware specific parts being per driver whereas closed source vendor drivers reinvent the wheel each time.

Similarly for kernel wifi drivers there is a single MAC802.11 stack shared by all drivers.

Vendor drivers have an initial head start since those writing them have access to internal documents describing the hardware interface and don't have to do reverse engineering. But, over time, OSS drivers can be better as improvements to common code help all drivers.

In fact I think the best way hardware vendors could help OSS is not to provide drivers but documentation.

Re: OpenGL 3.1 on Asahi Linux

#206

Post by sliken »

josephcsible wrote: post #103
kaba0 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why not just buy a Linux laptop Please tell me where is it because I will buy it instantly, and I’m only half kidding. I don’t see how making linux available on possibly the currently available best laptop hardware any different to the previous decades of hacking a working wifi driver into the kernel. It was always an uphill battle, and we should be thankful for those who take up the hard work!

> Please tell me where is it because I will buy it instantly, and I’m only half kidding. System76? Star Labs? Purism? HP Dev One?

HP Dev one works well, kudos to System76 for the desktop env.

It has the worst LCD panel I've seen in many years. It's not the resolution just poor contrast and poor color accuracy. It pains me to see it.

They went on sale recently, I bought one, and shortly afterwards (a few months ago) they stopped selling them.

Re: OpenGL 3.1 on Asahi Linux

#207

Post by psanford »

mfuzzey wrote: post #202
psanford wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> depending on a small team of volunteers to resolve all hardware issues in an ecosystem hostile to OSS, which might break at any point Apple decides to do so You are describing how most OSS software has been developed. I don't see how this is any different than early linux when no hardware manufacturers had any interest in supporting it. A lot of the work that the asahi team is doing is just fixing Arm issues in the…

>A lot of the work that the asahi team is doing is just fixing Arm issues in the linux kernel (and sadly user space) While I don't have Apple hardware so haven't been closely following Asahi I dont't think that is true. Linux has supported Arm for years (more like decades) now. They've been doing excellent work on support for Apple specific hardware sure, generic Arm not so much since it was mostly done.

Let me be more specific. There were a lot of bugs specifically related to non-4k page size architectures. Arm doesn't dictate the page size so most of the Arm systems out there have defaulted to 4k pages. The Asahi wiki has a partial list of userspace programs that were (or still are) buggy and broken because they made simplifying assumptions about how different architectures work[0].

Maintainers of other non-x86 architecture have said that this is improving things for them[1].

[0]: https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Broken-Software [1]: https://www.talospace.com/2022/03/asahi-linux-gives-hope-for...

Re: OpenGL 3.1 on Asahi Linux

#208

Post by sliken »

POiNTx wrote: post #106

How's proton support nowadays? The new M2 15-inch macbook Air looks really appealing

Proton is a wrapper/tweaks to wine, right? Thus x86-64 windows games can run on x86-64 linux. Thus the steam deck and many happy linux gamers. Apparently it's good enough to run a large majority of steam games, I believe I remember something like 90+% of the top 50 games on steam.

I don't think it helps at all with running x86-64 code on arm.

Re: OpenGL 3.1 on Asahi Linux

#209

Post by kelnos »

imiric wrote: post #186
psanford wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hardware manufacturers in the 90s were incentivized to support Linux to expand their customer base. That is not an accurate description of linux support by hardware manufactures from that time period. > Unsupported hardware in the 90s typically had a much larger customer base and group of hackers willing to spend time adding supporting for it. I also don't think this is generally correct. Have you looked at all the…

> Have you looked at all the random drivers in the linux kernel for niche hardware. A ton of that is from one or two hobbyists taking the time to add support. Sure, for _niche_ hardware. When was the last time a GPU driver was added by reverse engineering it? The single Nouveau maintainer was burnt out, last I heard, and the project was never a serious alternative to NVIDIA's closed driver. Kudos to whoever found the…

> Nouveau maintainer was burnt out, last I heard, and the project was never a serious alternative to NVIDIA's closed driver

Simply not true. I recall in the mid '10s using it because the proprietary driver was crashy garbage. No, I didn't get the same performance possible with the proprietary driver, and I didn't have a bleeding-edge video card, but it was more than usable as a daily driver.

Re: OpenGL 3.1 on Asahi Linux

#210

Post by ced »

hedora wrote: post #148
fallat wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you're fixated on the whole Linux kernel - we're talking about a small pool of volunteers supporting complex modules. There are good laptops out there other than Macs... Lenovo, HP, Dell, etc all have offerings which are supported out of the box by Linux because they aren't using their own hardware or do contribute the necessary code to run FOSS OSs. I'm not asking you to now dump your Mac. That'd be sil…

> There are good laptops out there other than Macs... Lenovo, HP, Dell, etc all have offerings which are supported out of the box by Linux because they aren't using their own hardware or do contribute the necessary code to run FOSS OSs. For the love of all that is holy, name one model that has the following properties: - 6 hours real life battery doing C++ development work. - 7+ days suspend battery life - 99.99% suc…

To be clear, is this a description of your experience with Asahi Linux?
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