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The Wait Until 8th pledge

waituntil8th.org

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Re: The Wait Until 8th pledge

#171

Post by autoexec »

deafpolygon wrote: post #169
autoexec wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Smart phones are poor computers. They also come with social media apps preloaded (the last cell phone I bought prevented deleting or uninstalling facebook) although that doesn't mean you can't order your children not to create accounts. They're also difficult to lockdown and monitor, and they continuously broadcast copious amounts of data about your children to third parties. Children would be much better served by h…

Spoken like someone in a bubble. Most people don't care for any of that - they want their TikTok, YouTube, Facebook dopamine hits. They want to "Like" the latest picture Granny posts of their kids. Not to fiddle with things and learn something new. For the vast majority of people, computers are just very expensive entertainment devices. That's why Smartphones are so successful. Not because they are great at computing…

> Not because they are great at computing,

Sounds like you agree with me. Smart phones are poor computers but they sell well because they're designed to be easy to use devices for media consumption and data collection. I've written programs on a cell phone (perhaps that's just a much less popular type of slot machine) but I wouldn't recommend it, or expect a kid to develop a love of coding by handing them a cell phone. A PC on the other hand could easily spark that interest in them.

I think kids naturally want to fiddle with things and learn something new. Maybe most grow out it eventually, but it's innate to them. We can't expect kids to know or care about the massive amounts of data collection in smart phones or the sophisticated types of manipulation they'll be subjected to on social media, but as adults we should know better and be very careful about giving kids access to either. Giving a kid an old computer or laptop instead of a cell phone seems like a much better option. Having one set up and available to them in a shared space like an office or living room makes it easy to keep an eye on them while they explore and monitor their usage.

I've never seen an iPhone that didn't have social media apps on it, but I've never seen one at factory defaults either, so I'll have to accept that you're right about pre-loaded garbage being an android specific problem.

Re: The Wait Until 8th pledge

#172

Post by elzbardico »

debok wrote: post #162
geocar wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Yes they do. Lots of people do because they talk to their kids. You are assuming that the kids somehow magically know what would make them happy. > One day, your kids are going to tell you that you are wrong. Totally wrong. Wrong about morality and ethics. Wrong wrong. And you are going to have to believe them, or you will lose access to a part of their life forever. How do you know that? I for one feel that my par…

Sometimes they don't know what WOULD make them happy, but most of the time they are pretty certain about what DID make them happy or unhappy. So, adjust as required. Your goal is not to eliminate all the potential for suffering and frustration in their lives, this is a lame, and impossible goal. Your goal is to enable them to deal with that in a positive and constructive way.

Re: The Wait Until 8th pledge

#173

Post by ta8903 »

jhanschoo wrote: post #148
gnicholas wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So far he hasn't turned into a domestic terrorist, and neither is he selling heroin for crypto on the dark web. Also, he has specific times when he can use his devices аnd limits on how much time. I think this sort of hyperbole is unhelpful. What people are worried about is more mundane: whether the hyperconnectedness will make their kids less happy in the short or long run. There is some evidence that the age of f…

To add a data point regarding early access to internet, I know of a <14yo kid who was learning digital art from yt, using iPad apps to draw, and sharing them on fora, and finding community online when they felt unable to connect with their peers in school. There were negatives to that experience too, and it could have turned out much worse. But completely prohibiting mobile usage is throwing the baby out with the bat…

The pledge is about smartphones, you can access the internet and use it for learning, communicating, etc with a PC/laptop.

Re: The Wait Until 8th pledge

#175

Post by prepend »

elzbardico wrote: post #72

This is the easy way out of the problem, but I am afraid, not the correct one. My kid has had his own tablet since 6, his own PC since 8, and his own cellular since 9. So far he hasn't turned into a domestic terrorist, and neither is he selling heroin for crypto on the dark web. Also, he has specific times when he can use his devices аnd limits on how much time. All modern OSes have some sort of parental controls bui…

> So far he hasn't turned into a domestic terrorist, and neither is he selling heroin for crypto on the dark web.

So you think. I for one have greatly enjoyed subscribing to your kids’ onlyfans where he relentlessly mocks about how clueless they are to his terrorism and heroin business.

Joking aside, it’s hard to know what our kids are doing and reminds me of a friend who swears that their kids don’t need controls because they don’t do anything bad. And the kid literally has a YouTube channel with them vaping, getting arrested, tagging buildings. They literally said something like “I talk with my kids and know them and they would tell me if they were doing this stuff.” And there’s a weird cognitive dissonance when they watched the video where they said that it wasn’t them, but their friends. “They were holding that vape for their friend, they don’t use it.” People love their kids.

I struggle with having useful controls and use a mix of Apple, Microsoft, google and third party tools like bark. None of them work well. Some do a good job blocking, but not unblocking for things like school.

A simple example of Apple’s, that I think is best, you can set a screen time limit like “one hour a day” and then set some apps like those used for school as unlimited. But the unlimited time apps consume the one hour limit and block the “fun apps.” So my kids would wake up early to use their one hour before school and have no time after school. You can approve extended time, buts by clock time, not actual usage. So if you approve an hour at 709, then it’s allowed until 809, even if they only use the app for 30 seconds.

It’s a usability pain in the rear end and I can’t expect anyone actually uses it.

Not to mention how buggy it is. At least a few times a day it takes 60-120 seconds to open the screen time app because it syncs usage before letting you approve requests.

So really, it’s easier to just block devices altogether. If I could do it again, I would wait until 8th grade.

Re: The Wait Until 8th pledge

#176

Post by geocar »

debok wrote: post #162
geocar wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Yes they do. Lots of people do because they talk to their kids. You are assuming that the kids somehow magically know what would make them happy. > One day, your kids are going to tell you that you are wrong. Totally wrong. Wrong about morality and ethics. Wrong wrong. And you are going to have to believe them, or you will lose access to a part of their life forever. How do you know that? I for one feel that my par…

> Also, I wouldn't cut my parents off for disagreeing with me about morality or ethics

You must mean something different than what I mean: What about someone who was molested by their parents? Should they keep contact with them? You think those people who would rape a kid should have friends and a social group that accepts them for who they are? Is there something here you think is okay?

Listen, I would judge you if I found out you defended your parents diddling some kids, and if you think your kids wouldn't judge you for it I think you really must have messed them up bad.

I really hope you mean something else.

> You are assuming that the kids somehow magically know what would make them happy.

Nothing magical about knowing if you're unhappy or not. Everyone knows when they are unhappy. You sound really unhappy. What can I do that would make you happier?

Re: The Wait Until 8th pledge

#177

Post by GTP »

jhanschoo wrote: post #148
gnicholas wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So far he hasn't turned into a domestic terrorist, and neither is he selling heroin for crypto on the dark web. Also, he has specific times when he can use his devices аnd limits on how much time. I think this sort of hyperbole is unhelpful. What people are worried about is more mundane: whether the hyperconnectedness will make their kids less happy in the short or long run. There is some evidence that the age of f…

To add a data point regarding early access to internet, I know of a <14yo kid who was learning digital art from yt, using iPad apps to draw, and sharing them on fora, and finding community online when they felt unable to connect with their peers in school. There were negatives to that experience too, and it could have turned out much worse. But completely prohibiting mobile usage is throwing the baby out with the bat…

As a person who had difficulties relating with other kids back in school (and that also had his first phone later than many other guys) I think that in my case having a smartphone and unrestricted internet access already in elementary school could have made things worse for me, as I would have been even less incentivized in learning how to relate with other kids. Sure, I could have been happier in the short term, but I think my social skills would have been worse long term. Of course this is just my opinion and in my specific case, but I generally agree that waiting until middle school is a good idea. And of course this doesn't mean that parents don't still have to do their job at informing their kids about potential issues of social media and the Internet on general, but I think that an older kid is better equipped to deal with those. At such an age, even 2/3 years make a big difference in maturity.

Re: The Wait Until 8th pledge

#178

Post by fifticon »

elzbardico wrote: post #72

This is the easy way out of the problem, but I am afraid, not the correct one. My kid has had his own tablet since 6, his own PC since 8, and his own cellular since 9. So far he hasn't turned into a domestic terrorist, and neither is he selling heroin for crypto on the dark web. Also, he has specific times when he can use his devices аnd limits on how much time. All modern OSes have some sort of parental controls bui…

I dont recognise that it is so easy to apply these limits, even though I work in tech. When trying to block through Windows, I get lost in a dark patterns maze of microsoft online family accounts, where I ended up with corrupt windows user accounts - I could no longer log into my own admin account with my written down paasword, and had to reinstall windows. When I try google/android instead, I end up with account/app limits that my child can easily circumvent just by watching videos through the browser instead. What I currently have resorted to doing, is dns blacklisting youtube through the router, and then using alternate DNS where youtube should work.

and this is not even to block my kid from youtube, it is just to keep her usage under/at 1 hour per day. meanwhile I have to fight with her misguided mother, who considers giving her a smartphone (she is 8, sigh). I am strongly against giving them to kids, given that not even adults can handle them responsibly.

Re: The Wait Until 8th pledge

#179

Post by fifticon »

fifticon wrote: post #178
elzbardico wrote: post #72

This is the easy way out of the problem, but I am afraid, not the correct one. My kid has had his own tablet since 6, his own PC since 8, and his own cellular since 9. So far he hasn't turned into a domestic terrorist, and neither is he selling heroin for crypto on the dark web. Also, he has specific times when he can use his devices аnd limits on how much time. All modern OSes have some sort of parental controls bui…

I dont recognise that it is so easy to apply these limits, even though I work in tech. When trying to block through Windows, I get lost in a dark patterns maze of microsoft online family accounts, where I ended up with corrupt windows user accounts - I could no longer log into my own admin account with my written down paasword, and had to reinstall windows. When I try google/android instead, I end up with account/app…

the bit about windows is that the feature is exploited by ms to get you onto online accounts, but not really to help YOU.

recently, we couldnt launch mineceaft, because windows was missing a windows update.. wtf.. like when pokemongo wont run jntil you apply an android update, sigh

Re: The Wait Until 8th pledge

#180

Post by fifticon »

GTP wrote: post #177
jhanschoo wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add a data point regarding early access to internet, I know of a <14yo kid who was learning digital art from yt, using iPad apps to draw, and sharing them on fora, and finding community online when they felt unable to connect with their peers in school. There were negatives to that experience too, and it could have turned out much worse. But completely prohibiting mobile usage is throwing the baby out with the bat…

As a person who had difficulties relating with other kids back in school (and that also had his first phone later than many other guys) I think that in my case having a smartphone and unrestricted internet access already in elementary school could have made things worse for me, as I would have been even less incentivized in learning how to relate with other kids. Sure, I could have been happier in the short term, but…

this was me too
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