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The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

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Re: The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

#81

Post by MrOwnPut »

wiseowise wrote: post #75
MrOwnPut wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't give a blank check to do whatever you want without criticism. And if previous actions justify later actions then the US shouldn't have meddled in 2014. Thus "no need" to blame Russia, the US is responsible. In reality, things are much more nuanced than that logic.

[flagged]

I'm not talking about the 2014 "election" that happened after the Crimea invasion.

I'm talking about before all that. The 2014 coup openly supported by US and Europe that overthrew Ukraine's pro-Russian elected President.

These things aren't propaganda, they are events that happened.

Do you honestly believe that coup was totally organic and the US had no hand in that one (just others)?

There is precedent for the US meddling in other countries and even Ukraine in 2004: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa

But maybe, just maybe, the US had no hand in these "revolutions", just the Middle East and LATAM countries.

Re: The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

#82

Post by lawn »

dehrmann wrote: post #29
perihelions wrote: post #11

This article currently has much more information (as of the time of posting) https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/jun/06/russia-uk... ( "Russia-Ukraine war live: dam near Kherson destroyed by Russian forces, says Ukraine, sparking evacuations" )

[flagged]

It's sad how people still believe Russian propaganda, and these claims have been constant throughout the war:

- We didn't bomb the civilians, that was Ukraine.

- The torture chambers weren't ours, they were found in Ukraine.

- Ukraine are nazis (no comments on the Russian white supremacists in the military).

- We did not blow up Nord Stream 2, that was Ukraine (or the US).

- We did not blow up the dam, that was Ukraine.

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

Re: The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

#84

Post by atdrummond »

MrOwnPut wrote: post #81
wiseowise wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I'm not talking about the 2014 "election" that happened after the Crimea invasion. I'm talking about before all that. The 2014 coup openly supported by US and Europe that overthrew Ukraine's pro-Russian elected President. These things aren't propaganda, they are events that happened. Do you honestly believe that coup was totally organic and the US had no hand in that one (just others)? There is precedent for the US m…

You’re not going to have a reasonable discussion on this topic here. The last time I brought up my personal history living and working in Donetsk and the views of my neighbors and friends, I was emailed and texted multiple times by users here to “kill myself”.

Re: The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

#85

Post by psychphysic »

dralley wrote: post #48
psychphysic wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it wiped away defences it'd be more than worth it and Ukraine is now more than capable with its Shadow Storm missiles which UK provided just for this kind of attack. It's a very bold move and if intentional it could be pivotal in this conflict.

It doesn't matter if the defenses are wiped out, if you cannot cross to reach those defenses. The terrain and roads will be wrecked and everything will be a muddy mess for miles.

Whoever knew this would happen (i.e. planned it) stands to gain massively in strategic terms.

That's the case no matter if it was Russia or Ukraine so long as it went to plan.

Re: The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

#86

Post by psychphysic »

dmix wrote: post #61
psychphysic wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it wiped away defences it'd be more than worth it and Ukraine is now more than capable with its Shadow Storm missiles which UK provided just for this kind of attack. It's a very bold move and if intentional it could be pivotal in this conflict.

Cruise missiles don't win wars like this. It requires land forces crossing and holding territory. The narrower parts of Dnipro was the easiest path to doing that in the south.

Those cruise missiles were specifically designed to destroy tough targets like this dam.

If either side knew this was going to happen (because they planned it) it would certainly easily be the difference between winning and losing this war.

Re: The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

#87

Post by lawn »

photochemsyn wrote: post #72

A propaganda war where nobody anything says can be believed about anything anyone says and the video from both sides is AI-manipulated and only 'embedded' reporting is allowed and then only from 'yellow' zones. Rather sad, isn't it, the extent to which manipulative propaganda has become the daily fare?

What's sad is enforcing the idea that all sides use propaganda, so therefore they're all equally believable.

Re: The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

#88

Post by MrOwnPut »

atdrummond wrote: post #84
MrOwnPut wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking about the 2014 "election" that happened after the Crimea invasion. I'm talking about before all that. The 2014 coup openly supported by US and Europe that overthrew Ukraine's pro-Russian elected President. These things aren't propaganda, they are events that happened. Do you honestly believe that coup was totally organic and the US had no hand in that one (just others)? There is precedent for the US m…

You’re not going to have a reasonable discussion on this topic here. The last time I brought up my personal history living and working in Donetsk and the views of my neighbors and friends, I was emailed and texted multiple times by users here to “kill myself”.

[flagged]

Re: The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

#89

Post by sschueller »

lawn wrote: post #82
dehrmann wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It's sad how people still believe Russian propaganda, and these claims have been constant throughout the war: - We didn't bomb the civilians, that was Ukraine. - The torture chambers weren't ours, they were found in Ukraine. - Ukraine are nazis (no comments on the Russian white supremacists in the military). - We did not blow up Nord Stream 2, that was Ukraine (or the US). - We did not blow up the dam, that was Ukrai…

It's called "fog of war". If you believe everything Ukraine/US/EU says you are just as much as a fool as if you did believing Russia.
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