Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think this true of all patents. Patents for drugs are obviously necessary in the current environment. But software patents are definitely bogus.
It is funny that pharma is always brought up as an example for industries where patents "obviously" make sense. Pharma is in fact a pretty good example why patents don't make sense and hinder innovation. Historically, before the homogenization of IP law, pharmaceuticals had different patent protection in different countries, ranging from very strong (the US), to weak (most of Europe) to excluded (Switzerland). The mo…
Our right to challenge junk patents is under threat
161–170 of 219 posts
Re: Our right to challenge junk patents is under threat
#162Why Software Patents are Bad, Period. https://caseymuratori.com/blog_0027 Patents are out of control, and they’re hurting innovation https://www.learnliberty.org/blog/patents-are-out-of-control... Economic and Game Theory Against Intellectual Monopoly https://web.archive.org/web/20120121014753/https://levine.ss... PATENTS AND INNOVATION IN ECONOMIC HISTORY https://gwern.net/doc/economics/2016-moser.pdf Historical rec…
Re: Our right to challenge junk patents is under threat
#163I have a challenge out to all my friends: "Show me one, just one, software patent that is not obvious to someone skilled the field, and I will stop my annoying diatribes about how bad software patents are." To this day I have yet to see to a useful software patent.
Re: Our right to challenge junk patents is under threat
#164I have a challenge out to all my friends: "Show me one, just one, software patent that is not obvious to someone skilled the field, and I will stop my annoying diatribes about how bad software patents are." To this day I have yet to see to a useful software patent.
Patents become obvious the second they're out. This is exactly why they exist. But coming up with the stuff in the first place is what's hard. I worked in video coding back in the day, I can assure you that there are stuff in the HEVC codec that are pretty far from obvious. AlphaGo is pretty high up there too if you ask me. Whether patenting software is useful or not is a different debate...
What about AlphaGo? The Reinforcement Learning methods? The Monte Carlo tree search? The Deep Learning?
DeepMind didn't invent any of these things but applied them in a novel way. If everything was software patented, AlphaGo may not have existed.
Re: Our right to challenge junk patents is under threat
#165Why Software Patents are Bad, Period. https://caseymuratori.com/blog_0027 Patents are out of control, and they’re hurting innovation https://www.learnliberty.org/blog/patents-are-out-of-control... Economic and Game Theory Against Intellectual Monopoly https://web.archive.org/web/20120121014753/https://levine.ss... PATENTS AND INNOVATION IN ECONOMIC HISTORY https://gwern.net/doc/economics/2016-moser.pdf Historical rec…
I'm starting to believe that all patents are at best ineffective, and at worse harmful in a globalized world, because it's not like airpods clones off aliexpress are actually being stopped at the port all too often.
Re: Our right to challenge junk patents is under threat
#166patent are necessary, but they must be only granted for 5 years of time span. 5 years of leverage to patent holder is more than enough for them to cover up there research cost
So then you look at things like, 'well has this patent protected the innovation to get it to market during its lifetime?' Maybe it should be re-evaluated every year to determine if the patent is serving its purpose, or simply protecting no marketable product.
Maybe we should look at the value of the product being created and once that product has earned x-wealth the patent is ended?
I will admit I'm in the camp of "patents are bad -> period", but I was surprised to see your submission at the bottom here. I don't think you're far off.
Re: Our right to challenge junk patents is under threat
#167Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is it the median cost for a trial or for all trials that a company does? A company might have many trials going on at once, of greater or lesser costs, but revenue is an aggregation of everything over a year. A company with $100 million in revenue and 10 trials ongoing and a company with a $1 billion in revenue and 10 trials ongoing would possibly lead one to specific conclusions, but even when it's broken down that…
Here is a link to the JHU announcement: https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2018/cost-of-clinical-trials-fo... You will like some of the numbers on that site even less than the $19 million median cost for a trial. The study was published in JAMA, link on the JHU page. I hope this does not sound like an appeal to authority, but good luck discrediting the numbers.
> You will like some of the numbers on that site even less than the $19 million median cost for a trial.
> good luck discrediting the numbers.
I'm not sure why you would think I wouldn't like the numbers. I'm not pro-pharma, I'm just pro-informed reasoning.
That said, the article you reference is a bit more nuanced than your take. By the studies they're citing, while the trials for drugs that were approved have a median cost of $19 million, they are clear to outline that it does cost a lot to develop a new drug:
The $19 million median figure represents less than one percent of the average total cost of developing a new drug, which in recent years has been estimated at between $2 to $3 billion.
“The cost of generating this fundamental scientific information is surprisingly low given the total cost of drug development and the high price tags on many drugs,” says study senior author G. Caleb Alexander, MD, MS, associate professor of epidemiology and medicine at the Bloomberg School.
So, while studies may not be a large cost center for new drug development, they state that new drugs are very costly to develop. Or maybe studies are costly, and it's just that it takes very many of them until one shows success. Ten concurrent studies on ten variations of a drug to look for something promising would cost ten times the amount, and there's still no guarantee that any one study will end in a positive outcome.
If we're talking about the justification for patents for pharma companies, it seems like we should focus on the "total cost to develop a new drug is estimated at $2 to $3 billion" part and not the "$19 million median cost to run a study" part[1], which as I noted is lacked enough context to know exactly how much it relates to drug development cost.
That said, I'm not sure the total cost number referenced above is accurate (to my taste) either. How much of that is advertising? How much of that is kickbacks and trips and drug rep lunches and free samples to doctors? I'm not sure because I don't have access to the full paper, so I'm not sure what their methodology includes. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that a few "blockbuster" drugs had 80% of the cost in massive advertising and good-will pushes to seed the public consciousness about them so they could make more money in the end, so I'm really skeptical that $2 to $3 billion is an accurate indication of drug development cost just as much as I'm skeptical that a $19 million median trial cost equates directly to the drug development cost in a way that's obvious from that number alone.
1: Referenced and linked in JLU article, but here's the link as well: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01676...
Re: Our right to challenge junk patents is under threat
#168I have a challenge out to all my friends: "Show me one, just one, software patent that is not obvious to someone skilled the field, and I will stop my annoying diatribes about how bad software patents are." To this day I have yet to see to a useful software patent.
Whether or not software patents are a good thing is an entirely separate question (one on which I suspect we agree, in fact) but software patents can and do contain actual non-obvious inventions.
Re: Our right to challenge junk patents is under threat
#169Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Do we really have no other methods to fund medicine? " We have. Public funded (also via universities) and donation based research. But investment money is kind of big and if it would suddenly disappear, it will hurt current research as most (?) of it is dependant on it. But all that money would not necessarily disappear, when patents suddelny gets abolished, as there is also the option of increased secrecy. Meaning…
That public funding has to come from somewhere, though, to the tune of quite a few billions of dollars. Do we really believe the tax increases required will be palatable to voters, and politically possible for elected officials? In the US, we can't even get universal public-funded healthcare. Not sure the increased secrecy would help all that much. Is drug manufacturing that complicated that a motivated company could…
Re: Our right to challenge junk patents is under threat
#170Earlier quoted context omitted.
Patents become obvious the second they're out. This is exactly why they exist. But coming up with the stuff in the first place is what's hard. I worked in video coding back in the day, I can assure you that there are stuff in the HEVC codec that are pretty far from obvious. AlphaGo is pretty high up there too if you ask me. Whether patenting software is useful or not is a different debate...
> AlphaGo What about AlphaGo? The Reinforcement Learning methods? The Monte Carlo tree search? The Deep Learning? DeepMind didn't invent any of these things but applied them in a novel way. If everything was software patented, AlphaGo may not have existed.
Just answering the original question.
Did AlphaGo bring anything new to the table? Hell yeah.