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Our right to challenge junk patents is under threat

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Re: Our right to challenge junk patents is under threat

#101
post #100

I have a challenge out to all my friends: "Show me one, just one, software patent that is not obvious to someone skilled the field, and I will stop my annoying diatribes about how bad software patents are." To this day I have yet to see to a useful software patent.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4405829A/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US6285999B1/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US7478074B2/en

These links seem to be self defeating in nature.

First, most of them are math related, except you get the computer to do the math. You can't (or shouldn't) be able to own or outlaw math.

The last link is a Support Vector Machine as far as I can tell. Those were discovered in like 1964 according to Wikipedia. And then it was patented in 199x? That's absolutely wild

Re: Our right to challenge junk patents is under threat

#102
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually think that Sawstop (in general. Might be some details that are bogus) is a great example of the patent system working as intended. The inventor reached out to several saw makers to license his new invention. None of them took it seriously. So he went and started a company with his new patent and became successful. Then other companies (Bosch specifically) tried to rip his tech off after they saw how effect…

I think that exemplifies why the patent system should at the very least not have the same rules and terms for physical products as for software, if it should exist for software at all. The time and capital investments to start up are just so dramatically different.

I absolutely agree. My point was more that using Saw Stop as an illustration of the broken system is a poor one. Because I think the patent on physical tech enabled a real disruption to the status-quo. Allowing "the little guy" to establish themself as a real competitor to some huge names.

Re: Our right to challenge junk patents is under threat

#103
post #100

I have a challenge out to all my friends: "Show me one, just one, software patent that is not obvious to someone skilled the field, and I will stop my annoying diatribes about how bad software patents are." To this day I have yet to see to a useful software patent.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4405829A/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US6285999B1/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US7478074B2/en

From what I can gather, that's RSA, PageRank, and the idea of neural networks and how to train them (or some specific subset or advancement of that I think?).

I agree these are novel and not something immediately obvious. I think what's happening (what always happens) is that people overreact and have a hard time finding nuance when they are upset.

Amazon's one-click patent was ridiculous. Is Google's PageRank? Maybe. Is the RSA algorithm or how to train neural networks? I don't know. Encouraging the development of these by granting limited time monopolies on them seems like it would encourage people to develop them, but if there was a different way to reward the inventors I would be interested in the details (i.e. less blanket statements that it would be as good, but reasoned thought at a minimum and data if we are so lucky as to have some).

Sometimes the problem is not the idea but the implementation. Maybe that's the case with some types of patents.

Re: Our right to challenge junk patents is under threat

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure radicalising this debate helps anyone. We are trying for a narrow victory of preserving IPR. Turning that into a broader argument about software patents plays into the opposition’s hands.

On the other hand, it's been argued that without the threat of a radical faction, moderate reformers are completely toothless. I'm not sure there's a generic answer to this dilemma that applies to all situations.

> it's been argued that without the threat of a radical faction, moderate reformers are completely toothless

Once you're at the table. If you're trying to get people in the room, a radical faction drives them away. In this context, consider how many people didn't bother clicking through to respond to the patent office. And consider how many tuned out the discussion because we've seen it before. That's the power of radical over scoping.

Re: Our right to challenge junk patents is under threat

#105
Intellectual property demonstrably stifles innovation. It is the ultimate rent-seeking behaviour. It's not limited to software patents either. Hell, it's not even limited to patents.

The Wright brothers had a patent on the flight control mechanism that they used to stifle innovation [1]. This problem was so bad that when the US entered the First World War, they were completely unable to produce any aircraft and had to buy them from the French. This ultimately led to Congress intervening to form a patent pool for aircraft patents, a system that persists til now.

In the early days of the Internet (ie Napster and Limewire era) there was a lot of hand-wringing about "stealing" music and how it hurt artists. Almost no artist makes sufficient income from music royalties. Only the very top do. The rest make a living from perfrmances and music IP doesn't impact that. But it does help record companies to explit artists, which is the main point.

The pharmaceutical industry claims patents are necessary for drugs. Thing is, most drug research is undertaken by government funding and then basically just handed over to Big Pharma, who spend most of their money on marketing not R&D. What R&D they do is largely to game the patent system to extend patents without minor but irrelevant changes.

Copyright law is repeatedly extended (in the US) largely to stop Mickey Mouse entering the public domain. At this point I'd be happier with a carve-out specifically for the stupid mouse and let everything else fall into public domain

We do not need intellectual property. For atistic works, 10 years. Max.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_brothers_patent_war

Re: Our right to challenge junk patents is under threat

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually think that Sawstop (in general. Might be some details that are bogus) is a great example of the patent system working as intended. The inventor reached out to several saw makers to license his new invention. None of them took it seriously. So he went and started a company with his new patent and became successful. Then other companies (Bosch specifically) tried to rip his tech off after they saw how effect…

Sawstop is a fabulous example. After the patent expired too, what are those other companies doing? Well, when I looked into European table saws last year, they started using it as a market segmentation tactic and putting stop tech only on their upper tier of $$$ saws. Disgusting. Felder, go fuck yourselves.

In the US you can be sued if you have a safety system that isn't on some models and someone gets injured. check with a laywer for details.

Note that despite the above, don't buy a tool without those safety features. Better to spend more now and live than get your heirs a pile of money.

Re: Our right to challenge junk patents is under threat

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IPRs are pretty useful for challenging bad patents and should be very broad. However, I found myself in favor of this change, and honestly questioning the EFF's motives given how strong and personal (speaking specifically to the EFF's ability to challenge patents, not a generic third party) your expressed opinions were in this piece. I am very sympathetic to the argument that Unified Patents and other folks who offer…

I'm aware that there are allegedly "bad" IPRs including the OpenSky case. The alleged "extortion" here is that VLSI, a non-practicing entity, I believe backed by a hedge fund, would lose their 20-year government monopoly and no longer be able to seek billions of dollars in court. I have no idea who or what OpenSky is, and I don't weigh in on huge corporate cases like VLSI v. Intel where everyone has plenty of money f…

[deleted]

Re: Our right to challenge junk patents is under threat

#108
post #105

Intellectual property demonstrably stifles innovation. It is the ultimate rent-seeking behaviour. It's not limited to software patents either. Hell, it's not even limited to patents. The Wright brothers had a patent on the flight control mechanism that they used to stifle innovation [1]. This problem was so bad that when the US entered the First World War, they were completely unable to produce any aircraft and had t…

Network effects are far more powerful than IP. Witness the fact that >50% of Twitter's users hate it and think everyone should leave but they are still using it because they are still using it.

Without IP the owners of the core hubs of network effects could take all intellectual products, monopolize them, and rent them back to us. We would be unable to resist because network effects are more powerful than we are as individuals.

Re: Our right to challenge junk patents is under threat

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IPRs are pretty useful for challenging bad patents and should be very broad. However, I found myself in favor of this change, and honestly questioning the EFF's motives given how strong and personal (speaking specifically to the EFF's ability to challenge patents, not a generic third party) your expressed opinions were in this piece. I am very sympathetic to the argument that Unified Patents and other folks who offer…

I'm aware that there are allegedly "bad" IPRs including the OpenSky case. The alleged "extortion" here is that VLSI, a non-practicing entity, I believe backed by a hedge fund, would lose their 20-year government monopoly and no longer be able to seek billions of dollars in court. I have no idea who or what OpenSky is, and I don't weigh in on huge corporate cases like VLSI v. Intel where everyone has plenty of money f…

> But here's the value proposition: It's just not wrong to challenge a government subsidy or monopoly. Period. Especially on computer software and hardware, because they're often wrongly granted.

I see where you're coming from, but I would suggest that this is pretty much an extremist point of view on intellectual property protections. It's easy to say that the online shopping cart is a dumb patent (because it is, and the Supreme Court generally agrees with you), but I think you would be hard pressed to argue against the societal value of patents on integrated circuit technologies, which can take $billions to develop, provide tremendous societal value, and have strategic implications.

Still, that does clarify the viewpoint of the piece to some degree - it suggests that you and the EFF are in favor of "patent accelerationism": make the system so shitty for participants that they abandon it entirely. The system is definitely shitty now, but I don't really see anyone abandoning it.

By the way, VLSI is the remains of a real technology company that went out of business... because its IP was blatantly copied. They had no choice but to sell out to a patent troll.

Re: Our right to challenge junk patents is under threat

#110
post #100

I have a challenge out to all my friends: "Show me one, just one, software patent that is not obvious to someone skilled the field, and I will stop my annoying diatribes about how bad software patents are." To this day I have yet to see to a useful software patent.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4405829A/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US6285999B1/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US7478074B2/en

Not to detract from the point too much, but RSA was independently discovered in 1973.
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