Earlier quoted context omitted.
Putting this here in case it's useful. Please correct if it's wrong. What is the Howey test for whether something is a security? """ The Howey Test asks whether a transaction constitutes an "investment contract," which is a type of security. If it is an investment contract, it must satisfy four criteria: It is an investment of money. The investment is in a common enterprise. There is an expectation of profits from th…
who is buying crypto and not expecting to make a profit from it?
SEC Sues Binance and CEO Zhao for Breaking US Securities Rules
151–160 of 489 posts
Re: SEC Sues Binance and CEO Zhao for Breaking US Securities Rules
#152Earlier quoted context omitted.
I get why you would say something like that in astonishment. By why would you ever send that out over a medium that'll leave a paper trail? Thank goodness that criminals aren't very smart. Their idiocy is doing society a huge favor.
It's a global phenomenon. People can't abstain from posting online and from sharing on messaging platforms these days. It's even been noticed by contemporary philosophers: https://youtube.com/shorts/Blw2dNZwZzg?feature=share
Re: SEC Sues Binance and CEO Zhao for Breaking US Securities Rules
#153Earlier quoted context omitted.
That accounts for the 5% of humans who live in the US, how about the 95% of humans who don't?
If you read the thread to which you are replying, it’s about the US.
Re: SEC Sues Binance and CEO Zhao for Breaking US Securities Rules
#154Earlier quoted context omitted.
> who is buying crypto and not expecting to make a profit from it? Me. I put my savings in Bitcoin because I dislike the tradfi system. All I want is to be in control of my savings and to be able to freely transact with anyone anywhere in the world. I am still affected by the exchange rates to USD and EUR. But the hope is that in the future I will be able to use BTC directly more often and not even have to touch USD…
> Perhaps one day even my country will get with the times and allow me to pay my taxes in BTC directly instead of having to exchange it to government funnymoney first. Something tells me your government cares more about their funnymoney than yours. I can't imagine a government wanting to take on the volatility of bitcoin for a tax payment. What possible compelling argument is there for them to do that?
I can certainly imagine why a country with a history of poorly managing their own currency (and that for whatever reason doesn't want to be aligned to USD) might choose to use a more "neutral" fixed supply currency.
Re: SEC Sues Binance and CEO Zhao for Breaking US Securities Rules
#155Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Intentionally broke the law... It's not like there are much laws regulating cryptocurrency markets in the US to begin with. That's the whole point why most crypto companies avoid the US: random enforcements != clarity But I'm really curious to see whether a large country (e.g. China) or countries union (e.g. EU) is going to provide enough clarity and security as to move the innovation elsewhere from the US.
Bitcoin mining is banned in China, exchanges are limited to government connected exchanges. Curious to hear from the EU
Re: SEC Sues Binance and CEO Zhao for Breaking US Securities Rules
#156Earlier quoted context omitted.
Point one just sounds like your opinion that securities regulations should not exist. Seems like a little stump-box-y to post in a thread about high-profile, blatant securities law criminality lol.
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Hiring a hitman should be illegal.
Buying slaves should be illegal.
Bribing the court system should be illegal.
This is not to say that every restrictions is justified, but taking the stance that no restrictions are justified is advocating anarchy.
Re: SEC Sues Binance and CEO Zhao for Breaking US Securities Rules
#157Btw, is there a single bitcoin exchange who is operated by people that do not behave like teenagers?
Re: SEC Sues Binance and CEO Zhao for Breaking US Securities Rules
#158Earlier quoted context omitted.
https://www.sec.gov/corpfin/framework-investment-contract-an...
Coinbase and the Howey test https://www.coinbase.com/blog/coinbases-staking-services-are...
1. I really need to look up case law to decide if Coinbase is right on the investment of money part here, and I suspect in part it relies on technically-detailed arguments I have no knowledge of. But if your money is locked up, it's almost certainly meets this prong, and my understanding is that staking does lock your assets for a time.
2. The not-"common enterprise" argument here boils down to "it's all down by computers, so how can it be a common enterprise?" Which feels like the sort of gotcha legal loophole that plays out poorly in courts, although I will admit that I don't know the case law in detail to evaluate this claim well.
3. Expectation of profit is derived in large part from how it's advertised, which... yeah, this is going to point towards security. I should note in particular that in trying to describe why Coinbase's staking service doesn't meet this prong sounds suspiciously like the original scheme in the case that provided the Howey test. This alone should cast significant doubt on the entire analysis.
4. The "efforts of others" again relies on the "it's just computers, so obviously it can't count, right? ... right?" style of argument as prong #2, but even less convincingly.
Re: SEC Sues Binance and CEO Zhao for Breaking US Securities Rules
#159Earlier quoted context omitted.
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It should be possible for non-consenting individuals to claw back their money when needed, by rules agreed to by the society they live in. Agree or disagree? More than one word, please. A full explanation is required to justify allowing DPRK and Russia to fund themselves by stealing from crypto-fools and innocent bystanders around the world.
Re: SEC Sues Binance and CEO Zhao for Breaking US Securities Rules
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
The definition of "security" is pretty objective (Howey test), but the answer it produces tends not to be liked by people in the crypto space, so they argue hard about why it's not a definition of security. What quotes like these do is make it trivial to prove the mens rea (intent) requirements, and put a lie to claims that they didn't know it was a security or that their interpretation as not-a-security was reasonab…
Some evidence that the Howey test isn't that objective and clear: 1) Gary Gensler, now SEC chairman, used to claim that 3/4 of the cryptocurrency market were not securities[0]. He has changed his tune significantly since then. 2) The SEC chairman can't answer this simple question: "is Ethereum a commodity or a security?"[1]. [0] https://twitter.com/ZK_shark/status/1650689125580668931 [1] https://youtu.be/h_oAr4wn7M4?…
Has he? Most of the market is Bitcoin and Ethereum. To my knowledge, the SEC hasn't gone after anyone solely cashing trading those.
> 2) The SEC chairman can't answer this simple question: "is Ethereum a commodity or a security?
He also doesn't have to answer whether a taco is a sandwich. There haven't been any enforcement actions based solely on whether Ethereum is a security.
Binance launched an ICO. Zhao raised hundreds of millions of dollars from investors, and then co-mingled investors' and clients' assets with his own. Their CCO admitted, in writing, to running an "unlicensed securities exchange." The poster child for web3 and crypto folks having no place near our financial system is such protestations that the law isn't clear. It's abundantly clear in the places it's being broken.