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Thousands of early-career NIH researchers forming union for first time

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Re: Thousands of early-career NIH researchers forming union for first time

#71
post #13

NIH should build more institutes in cheaper areas (eg not NoVa). It’s a win win since it will help revitalize poorer areas of America and save on costs. It will also tilt more senators/congresspeople to vote for NIH funding, similar to military base funding

I work for a national lab and in my experience it will take a lot for someone to give up a place like the Eastbay for East Tennessee. If the national lab were near Nashville that might be different. Los Alamos has to give software developers a sizeable bonus each year just to keep them from flying to greener pasteurs in a less remote location. I know I left partly because my wife had such a hard time finding work and…

[deleted]

Re: Thousands of early-career NIH researchers forming union for first time

#72

I think academic scientists are criminally underpaid (especially at the NIH), and really hope something can be done to rectify this. However, I don’t think unionization is the way. Ultimately, unions' power comes from the threat of striking. Unions' demands only have teeth because of their ability to completely suspend economic output for an entire company or industry. This is possible because economic output of most…

I’m surprised this is being downvoted. It’s a good point.

Why are they in a better place to judge? It's not like they're offering an alternative here.

Re: Thousands of early-career NIH researchers forming union for first time

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that all of the working conditions you mention are deplorable, and must be addressed. But again, I'm not sure a union is the right way to go about it. Unions only have power to bargain for things like insurance, childcare, or strong anti-harassment policies because of their ability to strike, and strikes are only consequential if almost everyone is on board. For every researcher whose career is set back due t…

The assumption is that the movement has built enough support for everyone to strike together. But a strike walk-out is one of all kinds of bizarre reasons one ends up getting scooped. Mice get sick, chemical stocks go bad, collaborators leave for personal reasons, etc. etc. Yes, there's a marginal increase in the odds that one gets scooped during a strike. Truth is, when it comes to transitioning to a faculty positio…

>Fellows on strikes are acutely aware of the risk of getting scooped every minute that is spent away from the bench, but in the balance, its really not foremost on many folks' minds beyond a point.

FWIW, most researchers I know who were involved in academic strikes did not put their research on hold, but all of them with teaching duties did walk out of that. This was sufficient to pressure the university to acquiesce to a decent portion of their demands, since total loss of graduate TAs/instructors is hugely consequential to the university. But the NIH is not a teaching institution, so this particular bargaining threat is moot.

>The assumption is that the movement has built enough support for everyone to strike together.

Perhaps we should agree to disagree on this, but per above, I maintain that this is an unlikely assumption at a pure research (i.e. non-teaching) institute.

>Mice get sick, chemical stocks go bad, collaborators leave for personal reasons, etc. etc.

These are all factors outside of an individual researcher's control. Few people would voluntarily decide to set back their career.

>Truth is, when it comes to transitioning to a faculty position (which is the point of a post-doc position), being scooped is really not that much of a deal

The point of a postdoc is to publish a handful (~1-3) of very high impact studies to bolster a faculty application. Getting scooped on even one of them can be a huge deal if it causes the publication to lose its impactfulness. I know several people in that boat, unfortunately—the scooping publication went to an absolute top-tier impact factory journal (e.g. Nature/Science), while the scooped paper went to a much lower impact factor speciality journal. Sadly, faculty applications are often evaluated based on the perceived prestige of the candidate's publications, not their actual contents, and while I can't say for sure that the scooped faculty candidates I know didn't get their ideal positions because they were scooped, I'd bet it was a nontrivial factor.

Re: Thousands of early-career NIH researchers forming union for first time

#74
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Los Alamos National Lab is a 12,700 person [1] government research facility in a town of 13,200 population [2]. Median household income $98k, highest millionaire concentration of any US city, highest percentage of people with doctorate degrees in the nation. Nearest IKEA store? 500 miles away. A government lab can get scientists to relocate their families to the middle of nowhere. All it takes is a budget of $3.92 bi…

By all accounts it's very hard for grad students and postdocs at LANL (much less locals) to find affordable short-term housing near LANL due to (1) the very small amount of housing available and (2) enough people leaving the lab but continuing to live there while taking up remote work in tech. This is despite LANL paying relatively well (as you noted) to try to keep talent from moving into other industries (tech, fin…

That sounds like an issue with local zoning, otherwise the market would fix that issue.

Re: Thousands of early-career NIH researchers forming union for first time

#75

>Although NIH wages aren’t inherently tied to those training grants, if wages increased significantly for NIH fellows, universities might “raise holy hell”, Wiest says, because it could incentivize researchers to apply for NIH positions instead of those at universities. This is a pretty weak point. There's hundreds of research areas and problems not worked on at the NIH that are explored in the hundreds of universiti…

If private companies did this, it would be a huge lawsuit: we mustn't raise wages, we have a tacit agreement with the other big employers to keep them low!

Re: Thousands of early-career NIH researchers forming union for first time

#76
post #13

NIH should build more institutes in cheaper areas (eg not NoVa). It’s a win win since it will help revitalize poorer areas of America and save on costs. It will also tilt more senators/congresspeople to vote for NIH funding, similar to military base funding

Bravo for this start at unionizing. Important step forward—-finally.

I made $13,500 as a postdoc at Yale (New Haven CT) from 1983 to 1985. $75/month went back to Yale for family health. Even the rent was $525/month.

That scales to roughly $38,070 per year today. And my pay as a grad student at UC Davis was $325/month for my last three years. No taxes—whoopee. Talk about delayed gratification.

Agreed: NIEHS is in North Carolina. NIA is in Baltimore. More of this please. And yes, this does engender strong local and state support. ORNL in Tennessee is a case in point.

East Tennessee has Oak Ridge National Labs and the region around Knoxville is gorgeous. So why not move the National Eye Institute (NEI) and the National Institute on Deafness and Other Communication Disorders (NIDCD) there ;-) in this Zoom day-and-age.

Re: Thousands of early-career NIH researchers forming union for first time

#77
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Los Alamos National Lab is a 12,700 person [1] government research facility in a town of 13,200 population [2]. Median household income $98k, highest millionaire concentration of any US city, highest percentage of people with doctorate degrees in the nation. Nearest IKEA store? 500 miles away. A government lab can get scientists to relocate their families to the middle of nowhere. All it takes is a budget of $3.92 bi…

Is that budget salary-only? They have some mighty expensive material requirements for some of their projects.

No, that's the budget for everything - salaries, equipment, grants given to outside bodies, and so on.

I mention it merely because, although LANL demonstrates the state can create pockets of prosperity in poorer places by moving science jobs, we should not imagine that it's particularly cheap.

The LANL example also doesn't show economic success spreading out from the lab, in the way Silicon Valley is sometimes seen as spreading out from defence research and Stanford University. Of course, LANL is deliberately geographically isolated, and you wouldn't expect startup spin-outs from a top secret nuclear research lab.

Re: Thousands of early-career NIH researchers forming union for first time

#78
post #13

NIH should build more institutes in cheaper areas (eg not NoVa). It’s a win win since it will help revitalize poorer areas of America and save on costs. It will also tilt more senators/congresspeople to vote for NIH funding, similar to military base funding

I work for a national lab and in my experience it will take a lot for someone to give up a place like the Eastbay for East Tennessee. If the national lab were near Nashville that might be different. Los Alamos has to give software developers a sizeable bonus each year just to keep them from flying to greener pasteurs in a less remote location. I know I left partly because my wife had such a hard time finding work and…

ORNL region is gorgeous and there are plenty of jobs and relatively inexpensive housing.

Re: Thousands of early-career NIH researchers forming union for first time

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NIH isn't in NoVA. It's across the river in Bethesda, MD. The problem with opening remote locations is attracting people. Montgomery County, MD (where Bethesda is located) and the broader DC metro region has lots of biotech, medical, and software opportunities.

But the traffic is a nightmare (I-270 is the Tenth Circle of Hell). Like most high-density commute areas, homes close to work are pricey, so people have to live in the boondocks, and commute. I know people that live in Frederick, and commute to DC. Of course, Frederick has Ft. Detrick. That's a fun place. I think it was the model for the biolab in The Stand .

People could just live in PG.

Re: Thousands of early-career NIH researchers forming union for first time

#80
post #30
post #13

NIH should build more institutes in cheaper areas (eg not NoVa). It’s a win win since it will help revitalize poorer areas of America and save on costs. It will also tilt more senators/congresspeople to vote for NIH funding, similar to military base funding

Military personnel move where you tell them, manufacturing jobs can train people up just about anywhere, but research isn’t so simple. It’s a real chicken and egg problem around local talent. Bethesda/Rockville/Baltimore has several different organizations doing medical research which makes the attractive locations for researchers to live. Locate in say Boise Idaho and positions are open for longer and you will need…

Disagree. We have FedEx and Zoom now. My own intimate research community is now 8+ time zones—16 hours if you count where our RNA samples are sequenced.
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