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Thousands of early-career NIH researchers forming union for first time

nature.com

31–40 of 151 posts

Re: Thousands of early-career NIH researchers forming union for first time

#31
post #13

NIH should build more institutes in cheaper areas (eg not NoVa). It’s a win win since it will help revitalize poorer areas of America and save on costs. It will also tilt more senators/congresspeople to vote for NIH funding, similar to military base funding

NIH isn't in NoVA. It's across the river in Bethesda, MD.

The problem with opening remote locations is attracting people. Montgomery County, MD (where Bethesda is located) and the broader DC metro region has lots of biotech, medical, and software opportunities.

Re: Thousands of early-career NIH researchers forming union for first time

#32
post #6

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Not all public unions are the same, I would discourage generalization. Federal public unions are very different from local and state public unions.

My wife's public union in a federal agency is a great tool for them to leverage when dealing with exceptional issues outside the normal channels and processes. Federal bureaucracy can be slow, and it can also be impractical when dealing with various things. As mentioned elsewhere in the thread and the article, a federal public union and their members can't strike, and they generally cannot directly negotiate increased pay since it is congressionally controlled.

Re: Thousands of early-career NIH researchers forming union for first time

#33
post #17
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Underpayment would lead to less inflation if anything.

[citation needed] Inflation might not be driven by wages but by company profits: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/feb/24/an-economic...

You know your own logic can beat that of others right? Citations are just links to places where other people wrote down their logic and aren't magic fairy dust that'll make an argument true.

People geting paid more is inflationary. People producing more output is deflationary. We need lots of both.

Company profits come from things being produced and then bought. So when profits are paid out to owners and employees as salaries, dividends, and other mechanisms, it gets filed under "people getting paid".

Now my main point is that if S, T and M have been underpaid vs their true output, they should get more.

Re: Thousands of early-career NIH researchers forming union for first time

#34
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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The problem being that public spending for new shiny projects is much easier to sell to the public than required maintenance. Without a strong voice how would public workers ever get enough leverage to earn even cost of living adjustments?

We should be trying to optimize public services, even if that means cutting staff. This is an area where we should 100% leverage AI and automation. Tax dollars shouldn't be used as charity to employ administrative staff. Many states are having problem with pension debts. These public unions also refuse to act on productivity or performance measurements. Perhaps some sort of bipartisanship Congressional committee for federal workers could be useful, with state and local level peer committees.

Re: Thousands of early-career NIH researchers forming union for first time

#35
I think academic scientists are criminally underpaid (especially at the NIH), and really hope something can be done to rectify this. However, I don’t think unionization is the way.

Ultimately, unions' power comes from the threat of striking. Unions' demands only have teeth because of their ability to completely suspend economic output for an entire company or industry. This is possible because economic output of most unionized industries is collective: a factory worker has no personal stake in the individual widgets that s/he makes, and thus can dispassionately suspend widget production along with everyone else in the union.

By contrast, science is extremely individualistic. Each "widget" is a scientific publication, which is directly attributed to a few specific contributors, and crucial for advancing an individual's scientific career. Thus, scientists are extremely passionate about their individual labor. Furthermore, science is often very time-sensitive — there is a huge premium on being the first to publish. Time sensitivity is especially high in the life sciences, since experiments with living things often cannot be easily scheduled around a strike.

Passionate, individually invested scientists are therefore much less likely to voluntarily suspend their work than dispassionate laborers in collective industries. This makes striking much less impactful (there will be a lot of scabs in a scientific union strike), thereby negating much of a scientific union's power.

(Imagine — you are an NIH postdoc working on a major publication in a hot field that will make or break your candidacy for a tenure-track faculty position. You are aware of several other labs working on the same project. Whoever publishes first gets most of the scientific accolades, and thus career advancement. The NIH union decides to strike. If you join the strike, it will set back your project, increasing the probability that one of the competing groups will scoop you, potentially greatly setting back your career. Are you going to let this happen?)

Re: Thousands of early-career NIH researchers forming union for first time

#36
post #13

NIH should build more institutes in cheaper areas (eg not NoVa). It’s a win win since it will help revitalize poorer areas of America and save on costs. It will also tilt more senators/congresspeople to vote for NIH funding, similar to military base funding

NIH isn't in NoVA. It's across the river in Bethesda, MD. The problem with opening remote locations is attracting people. Montgomery County, MD (where Bethesda is located) and the broader DC metro region has lots of biotech, medical, and software opportunities.

And it's an even bigger issue once professional specialists have partners and families. Even elite schools in relatively remote from major population center areas have long had some trouble attracting faculty whose partners may well be inevitably underemployed if they move to the small town/city where the school is.

Re: Thousands of early-career NIH researchers forming union for first time

#37
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem being that public spending for new shiny projects is much easier to sell to the public than required maintenance. Without a strong voice how would public workers ever get enough leverage to earn even cost of living adjustments?

We should be trying to optimize public services, even if that means cutting staff. This is an area where we should 100% leverage AI and automation. Tax dollars shouldn't be used as charity to employ administrative staff. Many states are having problem with pension debts. These public unions also refuse to act on productivity or performance measurements. Perhaps some sort of bipartisanship Congressional committee for…

See, even here the impulse is immediately to suggest cutting staff and directly saying that paying public servants is charity. You didn't addressed my point in terms of CoL adjustments. How does adding AI enure that high performance, productive staff members get these adjustments without it being viewed as a waste of tax dollars by the public?

Re: Thousands of early-career NIH researchers forming union for first time

#38
post #13

NIH should build more institutes in cheaper areas (eg not NoVa). It’s a win win since it will help revitalize poorer areas of America and save on costs. It will also tilt more senators/congresspeople to vote for NIH funding, similar to military base funding

NIH isn't in NoVA. It's across the river in Bethesda, MD. The problem with opening remote locations is attracting people. Montgomery County, MD (where Bethesda is located) and the broader DC metro region has lots of biotech, medical, and software opportunities.

But the traffic is a nightmare (I-270 is the Tenth Circle of Hell).

Like most high-density commute areas, homes close to work are pricey, so people have to live in the boondocks, and commute.

I know people that live in Frederick, and commute to DC.

Of course, Frederick has Ft. Detrick. That's a fun place. I think it was the model for the biolab in The Stand.

Re: Thousands of early-career NIH researchers forming union for first time

#39

It's not going to work. The NIH has no equivalent private sector competitor. For every single researcher, there are 10 other graduates and staff who would be willing to do their job for a fraction of the cost. This is a supply and demand problem, a funding problem. Strip congress and the medical board of their ability to control the number of residency spots and you will see the free market correct itself. Most biolo…

This is poorly informed.

There are many viable alternatives for these researchers. For starters, all the other academic institutions! Which have their own problems, but have been increasing salaries for graduate students and post docs in response to organization (eg Penn just raised biomedical postdoc salaries in large part because of the threat of unionization, and in large part because of the competitive threat of other institutions who’ve increased salaries).

But beyond that, private sector is absolutely a viable alternative. People don’t make their choices in a vacuum, they choose the academia path because it fits their long term goal and it’s worth the short term costs.

It’s also not even remotely true that being an MD is the first choice for researchers: of the people I know in research at prestigious institutions, it is a mix of MD-PhDs and people who only ever wanted to do research. There’s absolutely not some huge population of thwarted doctors getting prestigious postdoc positions.

Re: Thousands of early-career NIH researchers forming union for first time

#40
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should be trying to optimize public services, even if that means cutting staff. This is an area where we should 100% leverage AI and automation. Tax dollars shouldn't be used as charity to employ administrative staff. Many states are having problem with pension debts. These public unions also refuse to act on productivity or performance measurements. Perhaps some sort of bipartisanship Congressional committee for…

See, even here the impulse is immediately to suggest cutting staff and directly saying that paying public servants is charity. You didn't addressed my point in terms of CoL adjustments. How does adding AI enure that high performance, productive staff members get these adjustments without it being viewed as a waste of tax dollars by the public?

I wouldn't suggest AI making policy decisions, but replacing jobs at the post office or DMV. You aren't entitled to a job. Congress can vote on CoL adjustments for workers, both at the state and federal levels. Right now, its pay to play - the unions, some of the largest political contributors in the US, just pay (bribe) the representatives to advocate for them, in return for donations to campaigns.
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