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Tomb Raider

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Re: Tomb Raider

#91

Post by cubefox »

imiric wrote: post #73
cubefox wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Game design is limited by the technology of its time. Lara Croft's face was poorly defined, and her features were exaggerated partly because it wasn't possible to render an attractive quasi-realistic character before the first generation of 3D hardware. The renders shown in promos and cover art were done in much higher quality, and the Lara in those hardly resembled the in-game Lara either. Well, the article explic…

> Even Tomb Raider 1 - 6 did not have that much continuity. If you're talking strictly about the physical appearance, sure they did. TR 1-5 are basically the same game, running on the same engine, and Lara looks practically the same. These were all released within a span of 5 years, so it's no wonder only incremental changes were done. TR 6 was the first attempt to redesign the character, but then again, the game set…

Okay, my main complaint is that she looks boring and generic now:

https://cdn1.epicgames.com/offer/4b5461ca8d1c488787b5200b420...

https://www.play3.de/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Shadow-of-th...

That's just a standard NPC attractive woman face. If she at least had a braid, this alone would make her much more recognizable. If you showed a random gamer the character from the most recent TR game and asked them from which game it is, many would have no idea. Some TLOU NPC? The old Lara would be much more readable from the head alone.

https://www.allgamestaff.it/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/tr6_r...

A more realistic design could also work:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/40/03/3e/40033e34f90a2344d463...

Re: Tomb Raider

#92

Post by cubefox »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #74
imiric wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Game design is limited by the technology of its time. Lara Croft's face was poorly defined, and her features were exaggerated partly because it wasn't possible to render an attractive quasi-realistic character before the first generation of 3D hardware. The renders shown in promos and cover art were done in much higher quality, and the Lara in those hardly resembled the in-game Lara either. > That's like Nintendo dec…

>her features were exaggerated partly because it wasn't possible to render an attractive quasi-realistic character before the first generation of 3D hardware Are you saying real women don't have triangle boobs?

Those were already fixed in the second game, but people have a good memory for such things.

Re: Tomb Raider

#93

Post by Wowfunhappy »

magpi3 wrote: post #85

The quote from Charles Ardai bugs me. The original was a fun game. Women in video games were at that time (and still are? I don't play anymore) consistently over-sexualized, but it was never why I played a game, and I really don't think most gamers buy games just because because of the size of the main character's chest. Yes, the main character has to be cool and interesting, and Lara Croft is. They gave her an inter…

> I really don't think most gamers buy games just because of the size of the main character's chest.

Eidos’s marketing team apparently thought otherwise. No idea if they were right—although the game's sales make me suspect the marketing department was probably at least competent.

Re: Tomb Raider

#94

Post by thih9 »

teddyh wrote: post #46

Any discussion of classic Tomb Raider is incomplete without mentioning that the first Tomb Raider games are essentially exact copies of the original Prince of Persia game, translated to 3D. Not the level layout or story, but the control scheme – very distinct and not used by any other games – is identical . Also the standard traps are replicated, like collapsing tiles and spikes emerging from tiles. Tomb Raider does…

There are more additions and differences, in the control scheme and in the gameplay.

About the control scheme, guns, swimming, crouching or vehicles are just a few.

As for the latter, tomb rider balanced platforming with exploration and puzzles (prince of persia was mostly about platforming) and there was no sense of urgency (prince of persia had a timer).

Re: Tomb Raider

#95

Post by wetmore »

okeuro49 wrote: post #41
jmorenoamor wrote: post #35

For those who played Tomb Raider when it was released, you know it was a hit because the game was great, movement was smooth and the sense of freedom felt amazing. Lara as a sex symbol was the cherry on top and free marketing for the game, all the media talked about the game and made more or less obvious jokes about Lara's chest (90s jokes, you know).

For interest, I think it's in this documentary: https://youtu.be/eeMFdrIrdZY where the creator of Croft, Toby Gard, hated how Croft was turned by the marketing department into a sex symbol.

This is discussed in the posted article too.

Re: Tomb Raider

#96

Post by NoZebra120vClip »

CharlesW wrote: post #67
cubefox wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Duke Nukem is a good example. He also had somewhat exaggerated proportions, but it suited him, because his face didn't look realistic either. Just like Lara, who also had a slight comic-like look. It's absurd to imply (like Michelle Goulet in the article) that having female characters with exaggerated proportions automatically means "disrespecting" woman. She also says that designers may "throw in all the sexuality y…

> Anyway, the meme that boys at the time commonly viewed Lara Croft as "sex object" is absurd. We did not. You may not have, but everyone else did. Designer Toby Gard literally designed her to appeal sexually to male gamers in order to offset the fear that they otherwise wouldn't want to play a female main character. Early Lara Croft had ridiculous proportions. Her outfit is a t-shirt and booty shorts, for goodness'…

And yet, Lara Croft wasn't your love interest, Lara Croft is you. She's your avatar under your control, risking your life and limb, in a fantasy setting. So that seems like a powerful dose of unreality to gamer boys, who get immersed in the world and personally identify with the heroine.

Surely there have been incremental instances of this before and after Tomb Raider was released, so choose your profile photo, build your avvie, and have at it.

Re: Tomb Raider

#97

Post by cubefox »

rob74 wrote: post #90
cubefox wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, basically grid-based, no precise movement. It had some unique innovations though. The camera always stayed behind the main character but without the camera moving into a wall: If there was an obstruction behind Lara, the camera moved closer. Modern third-person games still use this get-closer trick. (Though they use the Mario 64 controls with free camera instead of the tank controls used in Tomb Raider.)

In the first Tomb Raider games, the map was grid-based (I think this was because of limitations of the original Playstation console), but the character could be positioned freely - it's not like moving one step took you to the next grid cell...

Ah, thanks for this.

Re: Tomb Raider

#98

Post by filoleg »

imiric wrote: post #70
swexbe wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Venom, Solid, Solidus, Liquid, and Naked Snake are all different people. Naked becomes Big Boss. Solid, Solidus, Liquid are clones of Big Boss. Venom thinks he's Big Boss. I don't understand what's so confusing? :)

Ah, TIL, thanks. But they all should look like Big Boss then? Considering the reply to your comment that Venom underwent plastic surgery... Kojima may be a genius game designer, but he's an awful writer IMO. None of his lore makes sense, and is only convoluted for it be served in exposition dumps in hour-long cutscenes. Death Stranding is a prime example of that. I enjoyed playing it, but can't remember a thing about…

> But they all should look like Big Boss then?

Not quite, because they were not all direct clones the way we think of cloning in real life, because in the Metal Gear universe, they could do "selective cloning".

I forgot the details of how exactly they described it (and I haven't played beyond MGS3 yet). But in MGS, Liquid and Solid have a conversation about it, where Liquid insinuates that they took the "best genes" of Big Boss to clone Solid (who actually looks like Big Boss), and used the remaining "weak genes" to clone Liquid. I would bet that this whole explanation is also sprinkled with a bit of nanomachines-related lore in the later games.

Also, their differences in looks could be explained by environmental factors and style choices. I would argue that Solidus looks just like Big Boss and Solid, but aged, more muscular, and with different facial hair.

Re: Tomb Raider

#100

Post by lowbloodsugar »

jmorenoamor wrote: post #35

For those who played Tomb Raider when it was released, you know it was a hit because the game was great, movement was smooth and the sense of freedom felt amazing. Lara as a sex symbol was the cherry on top and free marketing for the game, all the media talked about the game and made more or less obvious jokes about Lara's chest (90s jokes, you know).

I can’t really agree about the controls. Tank controls suck, especially for an acrobatic character. Remember Tomb Raider came out just after Super Mario 64 which essentially redefined how 3D games should be controlled. Even Resident Evil eventually relented on tank controls.
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