Stop eliminating good candidates by asking them the wrong questions • Hacker News Board

Re: Stop eliminating good candidates by asking them the wrong questions

#61

Post by BiteCode_dev » Sat, Jun 03, 2023, 2:18 PM UTC

slekker wrote: post #54

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #47

I see a lot of geeks giving advice on how to hire other geeks, but I'm guessing most of them had never being involved in the hiring process. In fact, if you sum up all the recommendations of people online about recruitment, you can't hire anybody, because every single move is something you should not do according to one of the self-proclaimed new expert. Once again, as a developer, I can only notice how much of a div…

And yet developers go through the most ludicrous interviewing processes, having to prove time and time again that they have enough technical skills, while having 10 years of experience in their CV :^)

I regularly gets paid by my clients to help them filter out candidates because they don't feel they have the technical skill to do so or their team is too busy coding something to be available for anything else than than validating the last batch.

One thing that comes over and over again is how much most candidates suck at programming. There are a huge quantity of people that are terrible at coding that will apply to your senior dev $200k job offer.

They all have a great CV, and they cheat at everything: fake interviews with a look-alike, using chatgpt or indian services to solve programming tests are not uncommon.

Last year, I had one former trader applying for a python job with a perfect resume, a stellar homework result, and who was claiming he likes "putting some good 10 hours of coding". First, there are maybe a 100 people in my country that can focus 10 hours in a row on code, and they won't apply for those clients. Second, the live coding review showed that he struggled to even create a basic virtualenv.

Last month I created a test that I knew had one question that ChatGPT got wrong. 2 candidates gave me the GPT answer last week.

So companies are desperate and try sieves after sieves, hoping to separate gold from mud. And they have limited time and resources to do so.

Of course the hiring process sucks. Even if they knew what they were doing, and most of them are not, it would suck.

Now don't get me wrong, it's nice the power balance is shitfing toward the workers for once, but hoping the other side won't react is just naive.

Re: Stop eliminating good candidates by asking them the wrong questions

#62

Post by francoisdevlin » Sat, Jun 03, 2023, 2:19 PM UTC

eterm wrote: post #48

logicalmonster wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For my current job I got grilled with leetcode style questions. I don't mind being asked a leetcode style question or two in an interview. Even if somebody struggles with solving an unfamiliar problem off the cuff, you can see if they they take some logical problem solving approaches. But it's frustrating that no practical web-development questions are ever asked for those kinds of jobs. For instance, security is r…

> a data leak could literally destroy a company overnight Source? I'm sure we "wish" that were true, but data leaks haven't even destroyed companies whose entire existence is predicated on storing data such as Equifax.

A data point - the capital one AWS breach ended up costing $270M[1]. While they weren't destroyed, it wasn't cheap either.

1. https://techmonitor.ai/technology/cybersecurity/capital-one-...

Re: Stop eliminating good candidates by asking them the wrong questions

#63

Post by logicalmonster » Sat, Jun 03, 2023, 2:19 PM UTC

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #47

I see a lot of geeks giving advice on how to hire other geeks, but I'm guessing most of them had never being involved in the hiring process. In fact, if you sum up all the recommendations of people online about recruitment, you can't hire anybody, because every single move is something you should not do according to one of the self-proclaimed new expert. Once again, as a developer, I can only notice how much of a div…

> I see a lot of geeks giving advice on how to hire other geeks,

Is it out of place for a chef to critique the hiring process for a head chef position with a restaurant owner that's largely clueless about what happens in the kitchen? Most people would say that the chef might have a better clue about ovens and quiche recipes than the restaurant owner, right?

> Once again, as a developer, I can only notice how much of a diva my peers have become. We are very lucky we are a hot commodity on the market, because I tell you, no other professional gets a pass for a tenth of the things we claim we are entitled too.

Providing some advice about being a bit humble is always valuable. There's a fine line between being confident and knowing your worth and being cocky and a rude jerk.

That said, if you're a software developer, you have a skill that's in demand that most people on Earth have no capacity to perform even if given years of free training. It's reasonable for developers that might provide millions of dollars of value to a company to demand better treatment than people who provide a fraction of that value to a company.

Re: Stop eliminating good candidates by asking them the wrong questions

#64

Post by mewpmewp2 » Sat, Jun 03, 2023, 2:20 PM UTC

albert_e wrote: post #38

phkahler wrote: post #24

I agree with most of it but not this: "Interviewees are often told to use “I” to get credit for work done, but “we” is probably a more realistic depiction of how work gets done." I've had too many candidates talk about "we" and the general project, or what the team they were on did. But when I try to get at what they specifically did I get nothing. Sure we need team players, but not just cheerleaders. Take credit for…

I am not from the states but my IT career involved working on teams with US clients and also working in the US for a few years. I find it very hard to say "I did X" for anything except for personal projects that I did myself from start to finish. In typical work projects even the best of ideas always need to be bought by rest of the team and also executed collaboratively by the team. I would be dishonest if I were to…

If you had the idea and you convinced others of the idea, that is a good story in of itself, because it highlights both very important skills, ability to brainstorm solutions and ability to persuade and sell others on this solution.

So you say: "I had this idea A to solve problem B, but not everyone was initially onboard, so I had to do C to convince others. I was able to convince everyone and I led the project to fruition with D results.

If you were in a leading role, it will be more impressive the more people and the higher levels you had to convince or lead.

Re: Stop eliminating good candidates by asking them the wrong questions

#65

Post by adhesive_wombat » Sat, Jun 03, 2023, 2:20 PM UTC

slekker wrote: post #54

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #47

I see a lot of geeks giving advice on how to hire other geeks, but I'm guessing most of them had never being involved in the hiring process. In fact, if you sum up all the recommendations of people online about recruitment, you can't hire anybody, because every single move is something you should not do according to one of the self-proclaimed new expert. Once again, as a developer, I can only notice how much of a div…

And yet developers go through the most ludicrous interviewing processes, having to prove time and time again that they have enough technical skills, while having 10 years of experience in their CV :^)

And somehow you still get very many people who claim to be experienced developers in $LANG and are unable to write or explain even basic things.

Usually engineers can spot the CVs talking around the fact they can't actually do what they claim well before it even comes to interview, but HR often can't and the recruiters will try it on anyway to get paid!

Re: Stop eliminating good candidates by asking them the wrong questions

#66

Post by SloopJon » Sat, Jun 03, 2023, 2:20 PM UTC

Although this anecdote is presented as something that actually happened, it feels like a straw-man premise. The VP "practically growled at me" and "found Anand's questions 'super annoying.'" "His assessment that Anand was a 'bad fit' was really code for 'I don't want to feel uncomfortable.'" This seems uncharitable, but if it really does describe the VP accurately as a cartoonish pointy haired boss, this isn't the article that's going to change his mind, even if the fairy tale did have a happy ending.

I generally welcome questions in an interview, but not all questions are equal. Some may signal a lack of preparation, don't seem particularly relevant, or come across as canned, like something they read in an HBR article (just kidding).

I'm no expert interviewer on either side of the table. If there's one nugget I'd take from this article, it's a challenge to "uncover capabilities, not just experience." How do I convey my own capabilities as a job seeker, or elicit them as a hiring manager?

Incidentally, the "77% of all jobs ... require little to no creativity" link takes you to a marijuana podcast, as the Martin Prosperity Institute is apparently defunct. I believe the statistic refers to a footnote in this paper (co-authored by the author of the submitted article):

https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/handle/1807/80108

Re: Stop eliminating good candidates by asking them the wrong questions

#67

Post by anonzzzies » Sat, Jun 03, 2023, 2:21 PM UTC

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #47

I see a lot of geeks giving advice on how to hire other geeks, but I'm guessing most of them had never being involved in the hiring process. In fact, if you sum up all the recommendations of people online about recruitment, you can't hire anybody, because every single move is something you should not do according to one of the self-proclaimed new expert. Once again, as a developer, I can only notice how much of a div…

Hmm. I have majors in CS and electronic engineering and minors in maths and physics. In EE I had jobs without any interviewing at all; just sending my diploma and resume. The CS interviewing system is highly broken compared to anything else I have been in touch with. I have been a software engineer, electronics engineer, ceo, cto, pre-sales and some more things. Software engineer interviews are sad shitty affairs; it’s easier to land a cto job than a developer job for me. It’s just dumb and companies who do it deserve to get told to stick that job somewhere.

Re: Stop eliminating good candidates by asking them the wrong questions

#68

Post by logicalmonster » Sat, Jun 03, 2023, 2:21 PM UTC

eterm wrote: post #48

logicalmonster wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For my current job I got grilled with leetcode style questions. I don't mind being asked a leetcode style question or two in an interview. Even if somebody struggles with solving an unfamiliar problem off the cuff, you can see if they they take some logical problem solving approaches. But it's frustrating that no practical web-development questions are ever asked for those kinds of jobs. For instance, security is r…

> a data leak could literally destroy a company overnight Source? I'm sure we "wish" that were true, but data leaks haven't even destroyed companies whose entire existence is predicated on storing data such as Equifax.

"could" is not "will"

Re: Stop eliminating good candidates by asking them the wrong questions

#69

Post by kayodelycaon » Sat, Jun 03, 2023, 2:22 PM UTC

leke wrote: post #10

kayodelycaon wrote: post #8

I’ve had this experience. I passed all of the interviews only to be failed by a senior manager that had some kind of expectation I couldn’t figure out. About 6 seconds into a phone call, I’d failed for not matching whatever expectation he had for how a phone call should go. As far as I can tell, he expected me to do everything his way without being asked. That was truly bizarre. I think I dodged a bullet there.

So if this type of thing let's us dodge bullets, maybe nothing should change?

My final interview with a different company included the CEO. I took the job despite the red flags because I needed money. While his antics and temper caused a lot of problems for many people, it didn’t affect my department much.

I have a disability and no network to speak of. Getting job offers is difficult. I generally can’t afford to avoid every job with a red flag.

Re: Stop eliminating good candidates by asking them the wrong questions

#70

Post by narag » Sat, Jun 03, 2023, 2:22 PM UTC

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #47

I see a lot of geeks giving advice on how to hire other geeks, but I'm guessing most of them had never being involved in the hiring process. In fact, if you sum up all the recommendations of people online about recruitment, you can't hire anybody, because every single move is something you should not do according to one of the self-proclaimed new expert. Once again, as a developer, I can only notice how much of a div…

I won't give any advice, but the story strongly resonated with me.

Spoiler alert: Anand got hired.

I didn't. After a thorough technical interview with the guy that would have been my boss, the VP had a five minutes talk with me, asking about my hobbies, what I looked for in a company and similar platitudes. His added value was deciding he didn't trust me, for no reason, except the magic Excel sheet he was entering my answers in. The first guy did call me to apologize.

The weird thing is the same company reached to me a couple of times years later. The most recent, I learned that the VP was instantly fired as soon as the company was bought by a french conglomerate and the whole infrastructure replaced. It was a mess, so I guess I dodged a bullet.

Once again, as a developer, I can only notice how much of a diva my peers have become.

I totally agree with that. We need to live with the rest of the employees every day, so it's better not to be a jerk.