Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46 • Hacker News Board

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#131

Post by jpmoral » Sat, Jun 03, 2023, 10:32 AM UTC

goodSteveramos wrote: post #72

vkou wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incorrect. Most of them weren't even tried . And of those that were, most of the ones who fought the charges weren't convicted, or were convicted of far lesser charges. Only a few got death sentences. ... For instance, the industrialists that bankrolled the Nazis, ran their factories with slave labour, and made posion gas for exterminating Jews and other victims of fascism got 2 to 7 years, with most of them being ac…

Thats not incorrect. The idea that people working for companies making basic supplies are guilty of murder for what their own government did with said supplies without their knowledge is so absurd that by your own admission they were not even tried. But that makes the trials of people who were fair? How about you directly enumerate the rights they were or were not afforded to determine if their trials were fair.

@vkou mentioned industrialists, not rank-and-file employees.

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#132

Post by hn976827 » Sat, Jun 03, 2023, 10:33 AM UTC

jmyeet wrote: post #51

The Nuremberg Trials weren't perfect. One notable example was Albert Speer, Hitler's Architect and part of his inner circle who got away with a 20 year sentence (before moving to London where he died years later) by claiming to not know anything about the Final Solution. He got away with this by basically being a "gentleman" without their being a smoking gun. It was a classic "he's one of us". But Nuremberg was very…

> But Nuremberg was very successful in de-Nazifying the country.

Um what?! You seem to know very little about post-war bureaurcats in West Germany. They failed completely at de-nazifying then country.

Example, the first secret service (Organisation Gehlen, precursor to BND) was headed by a Wehrmacht general. The CIA put him there and didn't care. He was useful against the Soviets.

Even the first chancellor (Adenauer) eas basically blind on the right eye.

The East was much more effective in de-nazifying, sometimes a little too eager even. (And Adenauer refused to accept even the existence of the East German state. Surprise.)

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#133

Post by refurb » Sat, Jun 03, 2023, 10:46 AM UTC

doctor_eval wrote: post #130

refurb wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US didn't want a war with Japan, but also didn't want Japan to control the entire Pacific. The US blockaded oil deliveries to Japan in response to their invasion of Manchuria, and was willing to remove the blockade if Japan withdrew. I'm not sure you could say the US "wanted" war any more than you could say Ukraine "wanted" war with Russia.

My understanding was that there was a strong appetite to attack Japan in the US government, but that there was no domestic support, so US goals had to be achieved using other means. I might be wrong about this, but that's what I recall. As far as I can see, there is very little to compare that situation and the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

From what I gather, Japan's attack did come as a surprise. The two parties were at odds, but not to the point that a war was an immediate concern.

No doubt some in the government wanted to attack, no different than you could find who want to attack Iran in today's government, but it's not the US government's position. FDR was definitely more interested in getting involved internationally, but the Republicans were staunchly isolationist.

The comparison to Russia and Ukraine is there. Russia preemptively attacked Ukraine because it wanted to prevent NATO from getting a foothold in it's sphere of influence. Japan considering the Pacific Ocean and namely the resources in South East Asian there's, so preemptively attacked the US to prevent it from opposing it's control over the Pacific.

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#134

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Sat, Jun 03, 2023, 10:46 AM UTC

kashunstva wrote: post #125

sorokod wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"So my take is that largely all legal norms were discarded or violated" Could you give some examples?

Where it suited the U.S. Cold War objectives, they turned a blind eye to certain individuals, notably scientists. Hoping to deprive the Soviets of scientific expertise in rocket design and various topics related to nuclear weapons, the U.S. created an extra-judicial pathway that bypassed prosecution for some. SS Sturmbannführer Wehrner von Braun almost certainly knew of forced labour used in the V2 program but rose t…

>SS Sturmbannführer Wehrner von Braun almost certainly knew of forced labour used in the V2 program but rose to prominence in NASA with no reckoning of his past.

And the US knew of the slave labor used by Belgium in Congo to extract uranium for the nuclear weapons program which killed dozens to hundreds of Congolese but for some reason we never talk about that as it's always "hey, don't look over there, look at the evil Nazis instead".

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#135

Post by tropicaljacket » Sat, Jun 03, 2023, 2:11 PM UTC

DirectorKrennic wrote: post #43

NoRelToEmber wrote: post #19

They had also accepted Soviet insistence that only Axis aggression was covered by the new court - otherwise the Soviet authorities would have been in the dock as well for carving up Poland in 1939 and attacking Finland three months later. - http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/20...

Other interesting parts. > Everyone in the court was issued with headphones to allow them to hear the charges being read in their native language, but the accused showed little interest. They were probably already resigned to the idea that they would be executed and thought there was little point in trying to pay attention and defend themselves. Most of them wished they were already dead. > The British Government wan…

Why is it ironic? Maybe you think too highly of the British empire?

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#136

Post by roenxi » Sat, Jun 03, 2023, 2:16 PM UTC

parabyl wrote: post #40

eschulz wrote: post #10

The Nuremberg Trials were fascinating. While I think many of the individuals leading the tribunal were trying to do a good job in the tradition of their respective nations' legal frameworks, the victorious allies could really not see eye to eye on what was a fair measure of retribution, rehabilitation, deterrence, etc. So my take is that largely all legal norms were discarded or violated, and the tribunal had to reac…

These sorts of ordeals (not that there have been many of them) truly fascinate me - especially with regard to the decisions on 'appropriate' retributive justice. As a student growing up in South Africa we were often asked to compare the objectives and results of the Nuremburg trials alongside the Truth and Reconciliation Comission at the fall of Apartheid. The TRC allowed those accused (on both sides), to come forwar…

I know not much at all about South Africa but what you describe puts me in mind of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcomb's_paradox - the world will be better off if powerful criminals believe that they can give up their power and still live consequence-free. Then at least they have the option of giving up power and everyone might benefit.

If they think they'll be given the Gaddafi treatment [0] then the rational thing for powerful monsters to do is go down swinging.

It is better to have systems to punish crimes, but it is also important to have meaningful amnesty even at the expense of fairness.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disarmament_of_Libya

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#137

Post by nickdothutton » Sat, Jun 03, 2023, 2:25 PM UTC

I highly recommend the Adam Curtis documentary (with its own biases and short comings) “The Living Dead”. In particular this episode. Trials like these probably don't work in the way you might think they work. The goal is to establish the 1 version of history that is recorded. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p08b5xvv

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#138

Post by rajin444 » Sat, Jun 03, 2023, 2:46 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #133

doctor_eval wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding was that there was a strong appetite to attack Japan in the US government, but that there was no domestic support, so US goals had to be achieved using other means. I might be wrong about this, but that's what I recall. As far as I can see, there is very little to compare that situation and the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

From what I gather, Japan's attack did come as a surprise . The two parties were at odds, but not to the point that a war was an immediate concern. No doubt some in the government wanted to attack, no different than you could find who want to attack Iran in today's government, but it's not the US government's position. FDR was definitely more interested in getting involved internationally, but the Republicans were st…

> the Republicans were staunchly isolationist

They were except for their nominee running against FDR in 1940. His interventionist stance (and otherwise complete lack of political experience) made FDRs victory all but assured.

I’m not sure how you have a base so aligned on a topic that gives them an excellent chance on defeating the incumbent nominate a political nobody who holds a dissenting opinion. The same nobody who went on to serve in FDRs administration.

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#139

Post by vkou » Sat, Jun 03, 2023, 3:50 PM UTC

KRAKRISMOTT wrote: post #124

oezi wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> without their knowledge I would beg to differ. The industrial magnates of this German era where all well aware of what their supplies were going towards: A 'total war' that didn't stop at exterminating anybody considered inferior. Each individual case is certainly difficult but there is a line where you can and should be tried as an employee for participating in something which violates laws and or ethical boundari…

Do you expect the executives of Raytheon and Lockheed to be put on trial if they lose a war too? You don't want to open that can of worms. Living by the sword is for soldiers and military, not for the civilian government. In the past, royalty who lost a battle were treated well and ransomed precisely to prevent blowback when the shoe is on the other foot.

If the US starts a six-year war of extermination against Jews and Slavs and Roma and others, killing 30 million people, I think more than the executives of Raytheon should stand to lose their heads, but it would be a good start.

It certainly wouldn't help their case if they also used slave labour, and bankrolled the fringe party that went ahead to seize power, and unleash that horror upon the world.

'Just following orders' isn't a valid defense for a lieutenant, and it absolutely isn't a viable defense for a general. Or for someone like Krupp.

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#140

Post by sillywalk » Sat, Jun 03, 2023, 5:22 PM UTC

lostlogin wrote: post #123

sillywalk wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention all the major powers had committed similar atrocities in their own pasts, and they all were racing to collect Nazi/Japanese scientists.

> all the major powers had committed similar atrocities in their own pasts The Soviets for sure, but are you really arguing that the US and UK (and Empire) were operating on the same industrial level? Incidents that come to mind for me would include the Bengal famine, and it was terrible, but it wasn't the systematic and controlled killing at which the Soviets and Nazis became so expert. https://www.theguardian.com/w…

The very idea of non-whites as sub-humans to be exploited was almost universal in Europe. The genocide of indigenous people, human experiments, eugenics, the whole process of colonization, any number of massacres.

The Brits invented the modern concentration camp during the Boer War, see also the Opium Wars. The Philippines War, Banana Wars,

Nobody is a saint, it seems to be the story of 'civilization'.