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Workers rely on medieval era tech to reconstruct the Notre Dame

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Re: Workers rely on medieval era tech to reconstruct the Notre Dame

#91

Post by hef19898 »

Animats wrote: post #65

They're using ordinary power tools, such as bandsaws and sanders. There's some hand tool work on the connections between beams. It looks like cabinetmaking carpentry on a larger scale, with lots of chiseled joints.[1] The real hand work is on artistic stonework. That really is being done by hand. Omni CNC's proposals to make replacement parts with their stone-cutting computer controlled milling machines were turned d…

And for good reason. Machining stone masonry for a cathedral, when you actually have a ton of people being really good at doing it by hand, is somewhat like Musk's cave submarine.

Re: Workers rely on medieval era tech to reconstruct the Notre Dame

#92

Post by pclmulqdq »

hef19898 wrote: post #53
canoebuilder wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As far as we know, the fire was an accident “As far as we know” In the same sense of like “innocent until proven guilty” But is that the right lens to be looking through here? What is the rate of accidental church fires, let alone at somewhere that is such a treasured location as this? Then factor in, wasn’t there an ongoing spate of what were clearly church arson attacks going on at the time? Then factor in what y…

So, your line thinking goes: It can have been an accident, or not. If not, well there were a lot of arsons happening at the same , maybe, so it most likely was arson. Not calling it arson is clearly political. And that means it was arson, because people in power and the establishment cannot be trustesd. It also means the arson was caused by politians, and those people in power not protecting us. Because they fail to…

Asking for an investigation that wasn't done isn't a conspiracy theory. Pointing out that the investigation should have been done, since arson in churches is very common, isn't a conspiracy theory.

Re: Workers rely on medieval era tech to reconstruct the Notre Dame

#93

Post by hef19898 »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #92
hef19898 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, your line thinking goes: It can have been an accident, or not. If not, well there were a lot of arsons happening at the same , maybe, so it most likely was arson. Not calling it arson is clearly political. And that means it was arson, because people in power and the establishment cannot be trustesd. It also means the arson was caused by politians, and those people in power not protecting us. Because they fail to…

Asking for an investigation that wasn't done isn't a conspiracy theory. Pointing out that the investigation should have been done, since arson in churches is very common, isn't a conspiracy theory.

The fire was investigated, the fire protection system, an unorganized mess build over decades, was analyzed. I have no idea what people are talking about when they claim it was arson, it was not.

Re: Workers rely on medieval era tech to reconstruct the Notre Dame

#94

Post by hef19898 »

masfuerte wrote: post #82
chrstphrknwtn wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> some of them possibly smoking I lived in Paris for a time, I would say it is guaranteed some were smoking.

I was in CDG airport in the 90s, shortly after they introduced a smoking ban, and gasping for a fag. So I went over to a check-in desk and asked the woman where the nearest smoking area was. She gave me a Gallic shrug and gestured to indicate the entire airport.

That was pretty normal behaviour across Europe right after those bans were invoked. Which happened decades ago, and has nothing to do with the Notre Dame fire.

Re: Workers rely on medieval era tech to reconstruct the Notre Dame

#95

Post by hef19898 »

mcdonje wrote: post #72
malartic wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or are they simply restoring it to the configuration that already failed? 780 years is not that bad for a building. (or, more precisely, the roof frame) Macron & co had some idea for new things. They were all horrible. While I do think with good taste one could do some new things nicely ( e.g maybe a titanium-based roof instead of the lead one ), a restoration is the next best choice when proposed new things are cr…

The only electrical fire vector they needed to worry about 780 years ago was lightning storms. I'm not proposing ugly or out of touch changes. Materials changes like titanium instead of lead are exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. Not all of the oak will be in publicly viewable areas. I'm surprised and disappointed you don't keep forests around simply to benefit nature and humanity without needing a pretext…

Titanium is a, extremely expensive, alternative to steel and aluminium when strength and weight are an issue. I literally never heard anyone propose to replace lead with it...

Re: Workers rely on medieval era tech to reconstruct the Notre Dame

#96

Post by kelsolaar »

mcdonje wrote: post #52
kelsolaar wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cathedral has been up for hundreds of years, hard to qualify that as a failure.

Not exactly in its most recent configuration that failed. The people in charge are so concerned about historical accuracy they need to cut down a thousand large oaks, but their predecessors weren't so concerned about historical accuracy when they retrofitted a medieval structure with the electrical wiring that ended up causing it to burn down.

The wiring that were installed in the oak structure, if they are the cause for a short that ultimately caused the fire, were contrary to regulation in the first place and were only meant to be installed temporarily.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notre-Dame_fire

Re: Workers rely on medieval era tech to reconstruct the Notre Dame

#97

Post by UncleEntity »

hef19898 wrote: post #91
Animats wrote: post #65

They're using ordinary power tools, such as bandsaws and sanders. There's some hand tool work on the connections between beams. It looks like cabinetmaking carpentry on a larger scale, with lots of chiseled joints.[1] The real hand work is on artistic stonework. That really is being done by hand. Omni CNC's proposals to make replacement parts with their stone-cutting computer controlled milling machines were turned d…

And for good reason. Machining stone masonry for a cathedral, when you actually have a ton of people being really good at doing it by hand, is somewhat like Musk's cave submarine.

For some reason English folk restoring French châteaus came up on my YouTube feed and I kind of like watching them.

Being able to hire craftspeople who can do things “the old way” is apparently very important when dealing with (the bureaucracy around) old buildings. A lot of these buildings were built, rebuilt and expanded over centuries so they have different construction techniques between different areas which also needs specialized knowledge.

Re: Workers rely on medieval era tech to reconstruct the Notre Dame

#98

Post by lgvld »

soco wrote: post #5

They also rely on medieval era trees to reconstruct it, as the more than 1000 oak trees painstakingly sought through entire France had to be more than 1 m wide. Okay not medieval - they are only about 200 years old. Could have made a nice title though.

My grand mother [1] has tracked down many of those oaks and produced imprints [2] of their barks as a tribute to the trees and also to the (both public and private) owners of the forests in which the trees have been cut.

At least 1k oaks were harvested from forests everywhere in France. [3] The majority of them were given for free to help in the rebuilding, and trees of this age/dimensions/quality are definitely not cheap. Both the cutting and moving of such trees -- between 6 and 13 meters, up to 15 tons! -- requires careful planning and flawless execution as they need to be taken out of the forests and preserved during their journey to the sawmill [4] in the North of France. (Here is also an interview of the sawmill operators [5].)

Crazy and fascinating project involving several rare craftsmanships.

(Everything is written in French below.)

[1] https://www.onf.fr/onf/+/bcf::constance-fulda-larbre-dans-la... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv38f3m3f2k [3] https://actu.fr/ile-de-france/ferrieres-en-brie_77181/notre-... [4] https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1876802/france-notre-da... [5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQtxUsU9T2Y&t=63s

[bonus] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9bardage

Re: Workers rely on medieval era tech to reconstruct the Notre Dame

#99

Post by sBqQu3U0wH »

brianwawok wrote: post #64
canoebuilder wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying “clearly not a unique occurrence” in regard to accidental, or arson? I’m surprised at the 25% arson rate, that is considerably higher than I would have guessed, and when combined with the strange response as OP was pointing out, and the fact that there’s not a large subset of “No cause determined,” it would seem to tip the scale pretty strongly to arson being the most probable cause in this case.

A lot of people are angry at churches. Mostly with good reason. So they tend to get the torch a lot more than your average business.

>Mostly with good reason.

Interesting, name three.

Re: Workers rely on medieval era tech to reconstruct the Notre Dame

#100

Post by xp84 »

np- wrote: post #90
xp84 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I hired a babysitter and on their watch, one of my kids caught on fire, yes, I'd insist on attributing that to the person whose one job it was to ensure their safety, and at least not hiring them again. Is that scapegoating or common sense? Nobody's saying they should get the guillotine, but perhaps they shouldn't be in the business of managing fire safety at the Notre Dame since it's obviously not something they'…

That would still raise a lot of questions right? Who hired the babysitter and what kind of vetting did they do? How did the fire start, was it due to poor maintenance and who was responsible for that? Why did none of the automated fire safety equipment work and who manufactured and installed that? Etc etc. it’s pretty pointless to just blame one person in the chain and call it a day

Seems like you get the point then. Yes, investigate and find the likely several people who have proven themselves unfit for their responsibility, and stop relying on them for that.
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